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Author Topic: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?  (Read 1712 times)

Offline Brent Williams

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Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« on: June 13, 2023, 03:38:12 PM »
As an experiment, my brother recently shortened the expansion chamber on a Brodak 40 muffler. 
Sliced/diced it and welded the front and rear sections back on.  Weighs around .85oz. (24g)
Is there any prevailing thought on the minimum requirements of expansion chamber volume to work effectively?
We have not yet had a chance to put the engine on the test stand for any data collection.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 05:01:34 PM by Brent Williams »
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Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2023, 05:06:59 PM »
I have no measured database, but I made and modified many silencers during more than half century, as I play with engines.
First of all, practically every usual silencers can fulfill the requirements of FAI Sporting code. (As I know by heart it is below 94 dB (A), measured from 1 meter, (no reflective object at the area).
All we want lower, furthermore not too sharp, irritating sound. 
As I observed, there are some antagonistic limits:
-when the chamber is smaller than 5 x swept volume of the engine, the sound will be too loud and sharp, or the silencer makes too high counter-pression for the engine, resulting power loss, and poor sensitivity in manoeuvres.
-when the chamber is 10 x or more than swept volume, we can get affordable silent and "round" sound, with good responsibility of the engine, but its weight and dimensions will be unaffordably big...
-one thing pro memoria: usually the model needs some silicone tube at the end of the silencer's outlet: it is very easy to make some unwanted Helmholtz resonator, which works differently at different rpm's, for this reason there must be implemented some baffle etc. to eliminate all resonances.
Istvan

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2023, 06:16:07 PM »
  Well, you for sure made it lighter!! I know the brodak muffler is pretty restrictive as it is. Try a flight with an airplane with muffler installed, then run it without!! And hold on to your hat!! I think you will have enough volume but where the restriction comes in is in the outlet. You might want to experiment there also after you fly this one. And I would fly it on a model, not just bench run it. See what it does under actual flight loads. i'm interested in your results.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2023, 08:22:58 PM »
Even in a ' box ' chamber , you get shock wave reflections .

But the suck it & see , would be easiest . Seldom are all factors envisaged , so Calcs'd be a GUIDE rather set in concrete .

The stack length also .

HP 40 I had two short ' extentions ' tween motor and a 3/4 ? tube . But used about ten 2 m.m. holes in the side .
the Theory being it broadens the powerband ! ( Hope springs eternal   ;D ) AND is quiter - as the shock is spread acoss ,
so a ruble rather'n a CRACK . THAT seemed to work , and the engine ran well .

Its kind of a ' Brooklands Can ' ( Copying the fish tail drilled outlets ) which were ' race sinlencers .



SO , if your putting a ' flat washer ' plate , in the back . You can get out the black & decker .

Use about the same area as would be the tailpipe .

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2023, 09:27:03 PM »
Overall, the goal is to be at least equal to the performance of a basic tongue/chip style muffler, with the advantage of being able to attach a short silicone tip if desired.  This muffler takes the small expansion chamber idea to the extreme.  Hopefully the presence of even a small expansion chamber will yield some benefit over a chip style muffler.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2023, 09:34:31 PM »
it is very easy to make some unwanted Helmholtz resonator, which works differently at different rpm's, for this reason there must be implemented some baffle etc. to eliminate all resonances.

  Or, crazy idea, you could make an intentional Helmholtz resonator.

   Brett

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2023, 11:28:25 PM »
.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 11:00:35 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2023, 06:06:00 AM »

-when the chamber is smaller than 5 x swept volume of the engine, the sound will be too loud and sharp, or the silencer makes too high counter-pression for the engine, resulting power loss, and poor sensitivity in manoeuvres.
-when the chamber is 10 x or more than swept volume, we can get affordable silent and "round" sound, with good responsibility of the engine, but its weight and dimensions will be unaffordably big...


I agree with the 10X estimate for four-stoke.  I believe in 7X for two-stroke because the bottom 30% if the displacement does not contribute to the combustion volume. 

The ear-splitting pulse only occupied about 2% of the time.  An expansion chamber of 70% of the nominal displacement will allow this pulse to expand with being heard from the outside while also allowing the engine to function without loss of power.
Paul Smith

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2023, 12:49:48 AM »
Curtis also modified a second version with a larger expansion chamber. 
If this El Nino weather pattern will ever allow us to have some decent weather we can do some testing.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2023, 04:45:33 AM »
I got a question about my comment about 70% of displacement on a two-stroke engine.

The ear-splitting, damaging part of the sound occurs only as the exhaust port opens.  This is confirmed on a sound analyzing app such as "engine RPM" on an I Phone.  The engine does not compress air and create power and noise with the exhaust port open, the bottom 30% of the stroke.

An expansion allows the exhaust to lose it's bite while expanding within the chamber.  The volume of the chamber reduces the back pressure.  Opening up the ultimate exhaust bigger than 20% of the piston's exhaust opening defeats the muffler and allows the pulse to travel through without loss of impact.

Remember, the damaging noise only occurs 2% of the time, the ultimate muffler opening is open 100% of the time.  Even 20% is generous.  The function of the muffler is convert the series of loud pulses into a steady flow averages-down the peak energy.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 08:46:06 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2023, 08:07:11 AM »
Another THING anyone who has carved all the ' cooling ' fins of off ( or isit off of . Is that comunist ? )  a muffler ,
Like a Std. Super Tigre one ( from the 21 series ) is the ECHO / Reverberation - resonance noise , WHICH
looking at a old OS Jetstream , are dead opposite the ex. port = To Stop the FLEX in the wall from the shock wave !

Tubular Headers ( Extractors ) you get the ' pinging ' noise at about the same speed as the pinging , which its not .
unless its the little ends or piston slap .  VD~ ( sorry .  ;D ignore this last line .  ;) )
The CRACK noise is the shock wave . Like on a good Triumph . Virtually a BALL of fire thrown down the pipe ;
THIS is whatcher get hitting the wall opposite the Exhaust Port . Which FINS brace so as to deaden it .

If youd like something else to worry about .  :o or consider , or wonder . This is why steel wool & baffles are put in - to break up the shock wave .

Just a thought or two . Its not only the outlet thats a source of sound . Theres even Intake Noise . As any Weber Carb fan will appreciate .  :)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2023, 08:34:04 AM »
I'm not a huge muffler expert, but from the few that I've had in my hands I've noted a large variation in weight and a small variation in chamber volume.

If you're chasing weight reduction, before you go on a quest to make the chamber smaller, consider making the walls judiciously thinner.  Either sacrifice some durability with ordinary aluminum, or sacrifice on low cost with some expensive aluminum (you're taking the effort to weld stuff up anyway!)

Or -- make a real tongue muffler, roughly the shape of, and (for a 40) a bit bigger than a human tongue.  Because that's more honest than the things people usually call "tongue mufflers".  The pictured example has more volume than yours, and less visual impact aside from the fact that someone deliberately shaped it to look like a body part.

If your brother can weld good enough for the color to be even, anodize it pink when he's done.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2023, 10:04:37 AM »
.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 04:41:45 AM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2023, 11:14:27 PM »
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/f2c_design_development_of_silencers_for_f2c_rm_dec_2013.pdf

And if youve got a bad hair problem ,




or a STALKER , the can diameter matches . My one does, anyway - Nail onto the exhaust fitting . Dosnt need a rear end , as it's got one already .

Bit thin for welding unless youre midgiterised , and the gear . But rather light & also inexpensive . Particularly when its on special . Make your hair stand on end .


Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2023, 01:06:27 AM »
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/f2c_design_development_of_silencers_for_f2c_rm_dec_2013.pdf

For the people unfamiliar with Rob Metkemeijer: He is top engine developer for F2C and RC Pylon racing.

As a side track: He was acoustic designer in numerous projects, among them: Royal Concertgebouw, Muziekgebouw aan ‘t IJ, Beurs van Berlage (Amvest Hall in glass), BIMhuis, Heineken Music Hall, Royal Theatre Carré (all in Amsterdam), IRCAM (Paris), Royal Albert Hall (London), Dr A. Philipshall, Royal Theatre (The Hague), Philharmonie (Haarlem), De Spiegel (Zwolle) and the Tonhalle (Düsseldorf).

Offline curtis williams

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Re: Muffler expansion chamber requirements?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2023, 10:35:37 PM »
It worked.  Better sound than tongue muffler.
We will see how it flies.  Still breaking in engine.


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