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Author Topic: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs  (Read 3511 times)

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« on: April 24, 2007, 04:25:54 PM »

I have a NIB RoJett .40 BSE I bought from a friend without instructions, ready for break-in.  There seem to be two basic approaches to break-in these days.  One is the "heat cycle" idea: short runs, 2 minutes or so, followed by 5 minutes or so cooldown between runs.  The other approach is running full tanks, maybe after a few shorter initial runs, with the tube pinch into 2-stroke and recovery to 4-stroke, etc.

What do those in the know think about these two ideas?

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore
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Offline Leester

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 04:58:59 PM »
Kim: I can sn the dirrections and email them to you if you'd like.
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Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2007, 05:54:01 PM »

Leester,
Thanks a million!  That would be very helpful.   ;D

kim.mortimore@hp.com
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 06:47:26 PM »

Now that I have read the RoJett instructions, courtesy of the Leester  H^^  it's interesting that neither Richard nor Randy recommend the short run "heat cycle" break-in method for their engines, which as I understand is based on one of two ideas:  1) that most of the wear occurs in the first couple of minutes as the engine heats up and its guts expand, or 2) that the crystal structure of the metal is changed by repeated heating/cooling cycles until it settles into its final whatever (pardon the highly technical lingo LL~).  I first heard about this method in the sixties, an article by GMA, obviously applying to old Iron Age technology.  But I notice Brodak still recommends the short-run method for its .40.

I will follow Richard's instructions for the RoJett, so that's not a question here.  I'm just curious on a partly theoretical basis (and for breaking in other, less regal, engines) what goes on inside an engine during break-in, and whether the best break-in strategy is the same for all or different for different modern engine types (aside from the well-known "don't start out running a modern aluminum-piston engine rich like the older engines").

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore
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Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 05:46:43 AM »
Kim, IMHO you pretty much nailed it. If I understand it the piston material in the newer ABC or ABN engines use a hypereutectic silicon/ aluminum alloy piston. The whole purpose is to reduce thermal expansion of the piston. Also understand that these alum. pistons don't change their structure during breakin.. they just wear to the cylinder. The old cast iron pistons were a different thing. The metal did change and swell during thermal cycling and would benefit from multiple heat cycles.

OK, I still use the 2 minute method on all engines, even the ABN/ABC stuff. The way I figure it is that if I do it about twenty times, I've put about 40 - 45 minutes of run time on it. If I run four tanks through it, I've put about 40 - 45 minutes of run time on it! I do know that the most wear occurs during the first few minutes of operation regardless of material of construction and isn't that wear what we want to mate the parts? So I'm lazy and hope that the cycling will accelerate wear and breakin. Haven't screwed up any engines lately.
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Offline phil c

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2007, 03:48:02 PM »
All the different aluminum piston materials are not the same.  There are some pretty sophisticated processes out there for forming and heat treating high silicon aluminum into useable material, besides just casting it.  For example, the stuff used in the AKM combat engine is supposedly made by a sintering/forging process starting with a powderded metal.  It results in a porous piston and they recommend a heat cycling break in for at least a few flights.  They also say the piston can grow from picking up dirt and may need to be lapped down after it has been run awhile.  One of the pylon race engine builders was using another special material matched to the sleeve so his engines didn't need any pinch.

All that said, the two B-40's I've run in were done simply by starting and flying, same as the LA 40's.  Run at a fat 2 cycle for 2-4 min a couple of times and they started to run steadily.  They still took quite awhile to really come in and settle down though.  A heat-cycling break in may speed up that process.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 04:09:41 PM »
Interesting note from last weekend. I was at Scott Riese's home and he showed me the directions for the break in of a Johnson engine. It basically said to start the brand new engine, then turn the needle valve in, running it progressively more lean, until the piston "froze" (seize?). Wait for it to cool down then start it again and do the same. Shazam! It's broken in.

Hmmm....
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2007, 04:27:02 PM »
Interesting note from last weekend. I was at Scott Riese's home and he showed me the directions for the break in of a Johnson engine. It basically said to start the brand new engine, then turn the needle valve in, running it progressively more lean, until the piston "froze" (seize?). Wait for it to cool down then start it again and do the same. Shazam! It's broken in.

Hmmm....


PLEASE  PLEASE OH PLEASE DO NOT do that with any of my engine...... n1 HB~> HB~> HB~>

Regards

Randy

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2007, 05:14:41 PM »

Speaking of weird break-in instructions, didn't Duke Fox at one time supply some sort of abrasive material that you would stick in the venturi with the engine running to....uh....lap the piston sort of?  or is that a myth?

All that said, the two B-40's I've run in were done simply by starting and flying, same as the LA 40's.  Run at a fat 2 cycle for 2-4 min a couple of times and they started to run steadily.  They still took quite awhile to really come in and settle down though.  A heat-cycling break in may speed up that process.

I like to have an engine fairly well settled down before I start flying it.  Minimize the variables.  Keeping planes in one piece is hard enough for me as it is...and I guess I sort of enjoy the bench running process, up to a point.  I can say that after an hour or two of run time, every engine I've broken in so far has been a substantially different engine from NIB. 
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2007, 06:41:53 PM »
Hi Kim

Yes the powder  Duke  sold was  called  Luxtrox  powder,  you  put it in a running  FOX  and  it would  "polish off"  the offending  parts....


Randy

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2007, 11:31:20 AM »
Randy,

The Lustrox was essentially a fine pumice powder in a white paste. The paste made the stuff easier to use when daubing it into the intake of a running engine.

Pumice is abrasive, but very soft. It crumbles down to very small as it works under pressure. So, Lustrox treatments were self-limiting in a way. With abrasive grits, there's always a risk of the grit embedding in the softer metal and continuing to cut the harder metal. ... that's just like the paper backing on sandpaper isn't capable of cutting wood, but the grit bonded to it is ...

With pumice, the risk is much less, as it will crumble down fine enough that it does not project through any oil film between the parts.  Or, if it does, the affected individual grits will crumble down still further until they no longer reach the 'other' piece.

However, totally agree that this approach is not a good idea with the tapered modern precision machining. It may cut away the calculated hot fits before it crumbles out of the way...

It was a decent method with parallel-cut iron and steel piston/cylinder parts, particularly when the pieces in an individual engine were on the excessively tight side. That happened occasionally with Fox engines... Lustrox simplified break-in, and spared wear on parts that a too-tight top end stresses too much.

When I lap-in a iron/steel set, I make a thin paste of Lava bar soap grit (again, pumice) and "reduce" grit size between two pieces of flat glass before it hits the engine. You can feel it cut, at first, then fade to no cutting at all... Depending on fit and feel, it may take several cycles of that, with thorough cleaning in between...
\BEST\LOU

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2007, 02:32:10 PM »
Randy,

The Lustrox was essentially a fine pumice powder in a white paste. The paste made the stuff easier to use when daubing it into the intake of a running engine.

Pumice is abrasive, but very soft. It crumbles down to very small as it works under pressure. So, Lustrox treatments were self-limiting in a way. With abrasive grits, there's always a risk of the grit embedding in the softer metal and continuing to cut the harder metal. ... that's just like the paper backing on sandpaper isn't capable of cutting wood, but the grit bonded to it is ...

With pumice, the risk is much less, as it will crumble down fine enough that it does not project through any oil film between the parts.  Or, if it does, the affected individual grits will crumble down still further until they no longer reach the 'other' piece.

However, totally agree that this approach is not a good idea with the tapered modern precision machining. It may cut away the calculated hot fits before it crumbles out of the way...

It was a decent method with parallel-cut iron and steel piston/cylinder parts, particularly when the pieces in an individual engine were on the excessively tight side. That happened occasionally with Fox engines... Lustrox simplified break-in, and spared wear on parts that a too-tight top end stresses too much.

When I lap-in a iron/steel set, I make a thin paste of Lava bar soap grit (again, pumice) and "reduce" grit size between two pieces of flat glass before it hits the engine. You can feel it cut, at first, then fade to no cutting at all... Depending on fit and feel, it may take several cycles of that, with thorough cleaning in between...

HI Lou

The Lustrox powder Duke use to sell was a dry powder in a package, I still have it here hanging on the wall, That along with another dry powder called garnet . The instructions said to use the garnet by hand, slowly, and the Lustrox dry powder mixed in oil in a running engine.  The garnet  powder was much more abrasive than the Lustrox powder.
I know how to use both, have used them many times but  never in a running engine, I have had several FOX 35s in my shop that people did  dump the Lustrox powder in while running, these particular ones were ruined.
I do mostly agree with what you wrote above, I just  don't really  agree  with dumpiing Lustrox in a running engine, I would much prefer to do this slowly  with lapping compounds  by hand. 
I have many differant sizes of lapping compounds that I much prefer to work with
This isn't to say that it can't be used this way as  I am sure that someone like yourself ,that knows what they are doing would not have any problems with either compound.

Regards
Randy

Offline Mike Greb

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2007, 06:00:21 PM »
Over the years I have seen some fox motors that have come from the factory that look like they have had Lustrox run in them.  I have also seen at least one fox 15 that looked like they had run some alumnimum swarf in it too.  I guess that is another secret fox break-in technique. :)

Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2007, 02:16:22 PM »
Now lets see if what they said works!
Larry

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Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2007, 02:18:28 PM »
Well Kim How do you like the one flip starts?
Larry

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Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2007, 11:49:03 AM »

Looks like Beauty and the Beast.  Guess which one is Beauty.   LL~  Modern high-end stunt engines really are like beautiful works of sculpture.

Thanks, Larry, for the pix and the very helpful advice.  Listening to the PA in your Imitation Plus as you fly the pattern it's obvious that, yup! this guy sure knows what he's doing.  Speaking of which, check out Phil Granderson's column in the new Model Aviation.  Another Beauty/Beast combo from Alameda.    8) 

That was fun yesterday.  I never thought of engine break-in as a theme for a party.  Guys just have to talk louder while it's running.  Good guys, good club.    y1

We must do it again sometime.

Thanks, Kim
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Lyle Spiegel

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2007, 08:19:21 PM »
Another little known breakin aid I use is to mix up some Moly Disulfide powder or "Moly lube" grease with castor oil- then while engine is running on breakin stand- I use an eye dropper to feed the mixture into the intake venturi a few drops at a time- being careful not to flood out the engine. The moly will adhere to the microscopic pores & ridges left from the honing of the cylinder liner and provide a nearly ideal low friction layer between the piston & cylinder liner wall and also provides extra lube to the crankcase bearing,and conrod to piston pin, and crankpin surfaces  The moly  castor mixture blows out the exhaust and makes things a little messy- but the breakin time is reduced.
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2007, 12:17:27 PM »
>>PLEASE  PLEASE OH PLEASE DO NOT do that with any of my engine...... <<

Randy,

Heck, I wouldn't do that on an original Johnson engine, much less one of your jewels. I just thought it was funny. Scott showed me that and all I could think of was, man, they must replace a lot of cylinders and pistons.
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Offline CharlesF

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Re: Break-in, short runs vs. full tank runs
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2007, 12:44:59 PM »
Long, long, LONG ago I put some "Brasso" metal polish into a running Fox 40. It was a suggestion at that time, probably from Fox.

As the guys say - DON'T EVER DO THAT!

Charles


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