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Author Topic: Low on Compression?  (Read 2471 times)

Offline ray copeland

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Low on Compression?
« on: December 23, 2009, 12:45:45 PM »
I am working on a McCoy redhead .35 r/c engine that i converted to c/l and planned on using in a OTS ship i am building. The engine appears to be in good condition and seems to have good compression when flipping by hand. On the bench after fueling and priming it seems compression weakens and i can't even get a bump, but it will start and run fairly good with an electric starter. After it is warm it will fire right up by hand flipping. I have tried a dozen times cold and cannot get it to start cold when hand flipping, only a little burst if i completely flood thru the exhaust. I don't have any engines that are hard to start like this and was wondering if this is typical of a worn out piston and sleeve fit? Also, would cutting a groove in the piston maybe help? Thanks, Ray
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 01:21:52 PM »
What symptoms are you looking for to determine lost compression?  If everything is nicely lubricated but not tight, and with lots of compression, if you pull the propeller through the top of the stroke the engine should resist you going up, then help you going down.  If it does this -- good.  With a really good seal you can pull the thing to TDC and hold it a bit, then go the rest of the way without any 'suck back'.

And why do you think it's the piston/liner?  If your compression is leaking down you should diagnose where.  Give it a good prime, look through the exhaust port, and turn the prop through TDC.  If you see a few bubbles next to the piston that's normal.  If you see _lots_, then you have a bad piston/liner seal.  Squirt some fuel between head and case, between head and glowplug, and around the glowplug stem, then turn the prop through TDC.  Bubbles indicate leaks, and you shouldn't have _any_ leakage at any of these points.  If you do, correct them.

A nicely fitting piston with a groove will (probably) retain oil better.  A poor fitting piston with a groove will just leak with style.  Given that these were reputed to be good engines back in the day, I wouldn't mess with grooves.

I have no clue where you can go if you need this refurbished -- I haven't flown any of my 'big' engines long enough to wear them out.
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Offline ray copeland

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 01:53:04 PM »
No leaks around the head or plug. I just went back out to the test bench and was able to start with a generous prime to the exhaust and a backflip, but there was nothing with a venturi prime. Also on this engine the plug is offset to the exhaust side, is there an advantage to this or maybe someone before me put the head on wrong?
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 03:18:53 PM »
. . .  Also on this engine the plug is offset to the exhaust side, is there an advantage to this or maybe someone before me put the head on wrong?

Ray --

It's been about 51 years since I ran a McCoy, but the offset plug head had a slot for the baffle, so the baffle would bang into the head if the head were backwards. Or was that baffled Foxes? Anyway, if you have a baffled piston, you can be sure the head is correct.

As to the compression, I don't remember a spunky flipping McCoy. Know that Country song, "Sound like life, to me . . ." ?

      Larry Fulwider

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 05:22:55 PM »
Ray; McCoy's are easy to restore compression. Just pull the sleeve and piston, set the piston right side up in the bottom of the sleeve, and set both on an anvil or something hard. Take a large flat end punch and a small hammer, and tap the top of the piston with the punch and hammer. Since the piston is domed it will spread the top just a bit and restore the compression. You may have to lap it back in with toothpaste if you get it to tight, but generally they will run just fine without doing that. You do not want to hit it very hard as the McCoy pistons are sintered iron, and are very easy to break. Just tap it a few times and check the fit. I have grown pistons .002" this way. I do this to mine about every two years or when they start to loose starting compression. The reason for doing it in the bottom of the sleeve is that the bottom is a little looser than the top and gives the piston room to expand.
Jim Kraft

Offline ray copeland

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 07:40:09 PM »
Thanks Jim, that makes a lot of sense. As soon as the holidays are over i will try your method. Thanks again and Merry Christmas!!!  Ray
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 11:36:42 PM »
No leaks around the head or plug. I just went back out to the test bench and was able to start with a generous prime to the exhaust and a backflip, but there was nothing with a venturi prime. Also on this engine the plug is offset to the exhaust side, is there an advantage to this or maybe someone before me put the head on wrong?
Check your glo battery.  I had exactly those symptoms on a Fox recently, and I fixed it by charging up the Ni-starter.
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Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 10:45:35 PM »
Ray,

I'm running a McCoy 35 RH on my Skyray 35, and it starts very easily.

It likes to be wet, so I hand choke it several flips, and squirt a small prime against the side of the piston, attach the glow driver, and back flip it against compression. Usually starts on the first try.

One thing I had to do was swap out the Fox glow plug I had installed, and replace it with a hotter K&B plug, because it would cut out occasionally in flight. Still started easily, so that evidently isn't your problem.

Using Sig 10% nitro, with 25% Castor oil fuel, and a 10 X 5 APC prop. It runs great, and seems to get better every flight.

Good luck with yours.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline ray copeland

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 04:41:11 PM »
Okay, engine is apart. Piston and sleeve has moderate scoring that will be cleaned up with fine sandpaper. Next will be the attempt to swell the piston tonite. Biggest question right now is the head gasket appears to be made of paper and split when i carefully tried to remove it. Can this or should this be replaced with metal ? Thanks, Ray
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 05:40:23 PM »
I cut my head gaskets for the Red Heads out of .016 aluminum from K&S. I use a paper punch to punch out the inside hole just inside of the line, and then use my Dremel with a sanding drum to sand it out to the line. Then cut the outside with sissors.
Jim Kraft

Offline Alex Givan

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2009, 06:46:13 AM »
  Great info Ray and Jim.  I have a very strong Red head 35 and 29 but my third McCoy, a 35 is on it's last leg and I had planed for it to be a parts donor.  I will try this method also and see if I can grow the piston a bit and give mine a new lease on life.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2009, 09:16:06 AM »
McCoy Redhead 35's were low grade, low price sport engines. Tolerances were all over the map. While not as high on the frustration list as WenMac, they caused a lot guys to lose interest in "gas engines".   Sure, there were some good units and some satisfied customers, but there were also countless no-start and one-start McCoy engines.  

A product that sold for $5.95 in 1962 has probably given up whatever it was once worth.

One of my neighbors had a similar story to yours in 1961 or maybe 62. The fix was an OS Max III 35.  The price of two McCoys and infinitely more valuable.
Paul Smith

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 10:31:07 AM »
Paul is correct about poor QC. I would disagree that the design of the McCoy 35 redhead was poor! I would sum it up as an excellent stunt motor (for the time) spoilt by poor execution. I made a post on the other forum, years ago, as to the best way to build an excellent McCoy 35. I got shot down by many posters and encouraged by a few.
  I have rebuilt a couple of McCoy 35s using the best materials I could obtain and somewhat less than excellent machining. The resulting rebuilds were delightful stunt engines, better than the orange head Merco 35s and that is some praise.
  A great pity that Testors produced the McCoy 35 in the way they did, better QC and materials would have made it an absolute winner in the day.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2009, 11:29:10 AM »
I don't think I said anything bad about the design of the McCoy engine.  It's basically similar to the K&B Greenhead, Johnson, OS Max II-III, or any "blackfin" engine.   The differnece was, that with the others you didn't need to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, like a professional gambler.

I asked for one of those for my 15th birthday, but John Kilsdonk, the pro at Royal Craft, talked my father into shooting the $7.50 and upgrading to a Fox Rocket.  Thank you, John.
Paul Smith

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2009, 03:10:33 PM »
My apologies Paul,
                        Sorry that I misread your post! Didn't mean to put words in your mouth that you didn't say! I havn't measured the numbers for the McCoy, but my rebuilt ones are definitely better than any OS Max II or III that I have seen or owned.

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline ray copeland

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2009, 03:22:43 PM »
Thanks for all the help and suggestions!  H^^ So far i have swelled the piston (very easy, a few light taps and it was obvious it was enlarged), honed the liner, buffed up the piston (slightly out of round according to my mic), polished any and all ports and bushings on the case, made a new head gasket and venturi. Back to the bench and same as before, hand flipped for 10 minutes and will only start with a squirt to the piston thru exhaust and electric starter, this while using a cord and glo clip to my power panel and trying 3 different type plugs. Sounds so sweet when running and always settles back to the same rpm after pinching the fuel line. My conclusion is : the scoring on the piston is deeper than i originally thought and after a few runs on the bench i could tell there is just not enough compression to start easily enough to use in competition. I really wanted to use a McCoy on this plane (Scratch build Super Firecat) but will settle for a .25FP. Thanks again for your help, i learned a lot from this exercise.
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2010, 09:42:58 AM »
If you fly in competition, nobodies going to complain if you use an electric starter.  I have done it many times. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Low on Compression?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2010, 02:10:03 PM »
I wonder if running an all castor fuel would fill some of the scratches with varnish and give you some more compression.  I have several McCoy 19's and really like them.  I have the poorest one on a trainer which has had several hundred flights.  It has no compression.  Head prime and choke; starts in a flip or two and runs fine.


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