News:



  • June 19, 2025, 04:25:51 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Shim a tank with ground running?  (Read 1387 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12895
Shim a tank with ground running?
« on: September 30, 2010, 10:35:58 AM »
Is there a way to tell, without flying, if a tank is shimmed correctly up or down?  Even roughly.

I've got a tank that's obviously too low -- when I'm adjusted for a 'just a bit too rich' run upright, when I go inverted the thing really richens up and slows down.  If I get some driveway time with the airplane I'd like to address this.

Is this as simple as filling it up, then running it level vs. running it level and inverted?  Do I need to tilt the outer wing down to simulate centripetal effects?  Or do I just need to fly and fly and fly?

I want to get this plane sorted out!
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 12:39:00 PM »
Hi Tim,
  I tried this method (thought I was smart until lots of folk said they did this!). It certainly got me very close to the correct tank height. It still needs a flight trial or two to get it exactly right, but its pretty close, even good enough if you are not too fussy!

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12895
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 12:48:27 PM »
Close enough to only need a flight or two of fine trimming is a lot better than spending my one remaining practice day before my first contest messing with a tank!

I seriously need to work on my loops if I'm to complete the beginner pattern: after crashing my Nobler by coming out of an outside loop 1.6 meters lower than the ideal height I've found that all of my loops tend to tighten up dramatically after I bump over the top: they start nice and round, then I go over the top, then my sphincter tightens and so does the loop, and suddenly I'm flying level and about 20 feet above the ground.

And I can't fix that if I'm fixing the fact that the plane doesn't want to fly nice when inverted.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Russell Shaffer

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 04:48:59 PM »
Take Leonard Nieuman's advice and shoot for 10 foot bottoms.  Then there will be some cushion and you can lower them when you get consistent.  If you can repeat 10 foot bottoms then it is time to go lower.  Saves on airplanes.
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12895
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 04:52:55 PM »
Take Leonard Nieuman's advice and shoot for 10 foot bottoms.  Then there will be some cushion and you can lower them when you get consistent.  If you can repeat 10 foot bottoms then it is time to go lower.  Saves on airplanes.
That sounds good.  Those minus six inch bottoms are hard on airplanes, and it's kinda hard to make a decent loop from 20 feet.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Jim Thomerson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2010, 12:49:15 PM »
Lou Crane has several times posted a bench adjustment method he uses. 

Offline rustler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2010, 01:31:21 PM »
Shimatanko? Shimatanko? Where have I heard that before?
Wait a minute, I've got it. I'm thinking of that Russian general of WW2, who was really an Irish infiltrator - Tim O'Shenko ;D

(Apologies for ruining a serious question  '')
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 04:06:00 PM »
Tim,

Sorry for the  delay...

My method that Jim T referred to is this:

Since the model is under loads from gravity (always 1 g straight down), AND "centrifugal" forces from flying in a circle...

...the fuel 'feels' a "local gravity" direction that acts the same as the two basic loads combined into one force. Most CL sport/stunt models fly at about 3 g, centrifugal.

The local gravity direction, then, is out ~3 units and down 1 unit. This is true flying upright AND inverted. Gravity doesn't reverse just because the model is going the other way.

To simulate the direction of that local gravity for both upright and inverted flight:-

Start the engine. Hold the fuselage centerline level during all these tests, except fuel shutoff.

Roll the model so the wings are vertical, outboard tip down.

Set a comfortable  needle that you can hear a change to richer or leaner. (Tach things if you can.)

Roll the  model to about 45° pilot's head up. Note and mixture or RPM change from wings vertical.

Roll it to the other 45° and listen or tach RPM.

If you've kept the fuselage centerline level, you'll probably note an RPM difference. Lock in your mind which way it went richer, or leaner.

Shut off the engine: Nose straight down, outboard wingtip up, and a finger over the fuel tank air vent will stop the noise in a hurry.

The tank is too "high" regarding the rolled attitude where the engine ran richer. That proves itself because it should have also gone leaner at the "other 45°."

Shift the tank accordingly, down away from the richer side, or vice versa. Check it again. After two or three such check runs, you should have practically identical RPM at both 45° rolled  attitudes. The tank height should be safe for reasonable flying. If it needs further tweaking, you can only determine that by observing several flights.

Yes, this only deals with upright and inverted level flight conditions directly, but the maneuvers are also "insides" and "outsides." That is, another g force is added to the gravity and level flight centrifugal. That other force still starts around the level flight middle, and should range with the tightness of turn equally both sides from neutral. Any height imbalance will definitely get worse under maneuvering g...
\BEST\LOU

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12895
Re: Shim a tank with ground running?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 04:25:50 PM »
Thanks Lou -- I'll do it that way next time.  I was holding the plane level, then flipping it inverted.  This on the theory that while a "pure up" or "pure down" acceleration vector wasn't right, it'd at least give me the right change in mixture at the engine.

But I had the engine set at a point where it wasn't terribly sensitive to mixture (what was I thinking?!?) so all I found out was that I couldn't tell, and I needed to go flying.

Good info.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.


Advertise Here
Tags: