News:


*
  • June 18, 2025, 04:12:56 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing  (Read 6075 times)

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1199
LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« on: July 03, 2016, 10:17:38 AM »
I have obtained a silver LA40 set up for CL with a .275 black plastic venturi and Randy Smith-type NVA. The piston has been modified by creating sloping ramps at the two transfer port locations, which would effectively lower or raise the port timing, depending on how you define it. The motor appears to have very little run time on it, piston crown, combustion chamber, and exhaust stack area look like new. There is no third port on this engine (not counting the exhaust port).

Is this regarded as a helpful modification for an LA40, or would it be one of those well intended mods that actually degrades engine performance? Engine was in a Gieseke Nobler so was being used for stunt.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 11:26:09 AM »
Similar mods to the LA46 were suggested by an Australian stunt expert. The objective was to improve the 4-2-4 performance. I have done the recommended mods and it does work surprisingly well.
Doubtless this will be condemned by those who say that engines such as this should be left stock and run in a wet two stroke. However there are lots of people who fly for fun and many old timers prefer the 4-2-4 break to the more modern way of running an engine. Each to his own as far as I am concerned.
Do NOT even think about attempting such modifications unless you are a competent engineer. Many engines are ruined by people who don't know what they are doing! If you are competent, then this modification is good if you prefer the older style 4-2-4. The article is contained in one of the old British AMI magazines and also in one of the Australian journals.

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12894
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2016, 07:42:46 PM »
Mike:

First, be sure to enthuse about the performance the next time you're at a contest with Brett Buck.  Perhaps at arms length or more.  Please send me a movie.

Second, expect the ultimate performance (and, hence, the biggest plane you can haul around) to be less than what other folks may be getting from similar engines.  You're basically cutting the top off of the performance curve when you do those mods.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Russell Shaffer

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1333
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2016, 08:09:47 PM »
I once, many years ago, did this same modification to a Yamaha 350 that had an abrupt power band.  It tamed it considerably and it was much more pleasant to putter around on but I never thought of doing it to a model engine.  Interesting idea. 
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1199
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2016, 11:36:08 PM »
Virtually every contest I attend is also attended by Brett, normally judging my Advanced pattern. I was going to rib him last week about his bone stock LA25 on the famous Skyray (he estimates 1500 flights on it) and tell him he needs to go to a chip muffler and ST NVA, but thought better of it. My own LA25 is dead stock and have to say it runs amazingly well, just as Brett contends. The LA46, of which I have 3, runs extremely well stock, but also runs great with an Enya or Randy Smith NVA, using appropriate venturi. The LA46 does not appear to be sensitive to muffler type. The LA40 is a different breed of cat, so wanted to know what experienced engine guys think about the surprising piston mod I discovered when I removed the head on this new acquisition. I personally would not have made such a mod since my other 2 LA40s run fine totally stock.

The only real way to find out is put this new LA40 into the Smoothie and see what it does. I will let you know.

Offline Chris Wilson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1710
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 03:51:44 AM »
The piston has been modified by creating sloping ramps at the two transfer port locations..............

From memory Derek Pickard did a write up in ACLN issue 70 and stated that the above modification made the engine 4/2 better.
Ah, found it .....

"Stunt engine specialists have been modifying these
engines since they have been on the market and fliers
report good results. The modding work is made easier by
the lack of a third transfer port so the specialists
invariably do no more than raising the tops of the two
transfer ports and adding a couple of head shims. The
motor will then run well on 10% nitro and give even better
4-2-4 control. And all this can be done for a very
attractive total price."

"If you can use a toothbrush, you can modify this motor
for stunt. The work involves little more than taking it
apart, using simple tools carefully and cleaning before reassembly.
Take off the head and have a good long look at the way
the ports are arranged in relation to the piston. Gently
mark the piston top for the widths of the two transfer
ports. Pull everything to pieces and have a look at the
way it goes together for subsequent reassembly. Then
thoroughly clean all the parts to avoid nasty bits sticking
onto them and subsequently cause grinding damage.
What we’re out to do is raise the effective transfer port
timing. It needs only a small amount. The normal way of
doing this is to file/grind the top internal surfaces of the
two ports being careful to maintain the roof angle and
ensure both ports heights are matched. if you feel
confident to do this then do so without holding the
cylinder in a vice or forcing the piston temporarily back in
position (to check height levels) without prior cleaning.
The amount of metal to be removed is very little. Just
20thou (half a mm) lifts the timing from 116 degrees to
124 degrees and 30 thou takes it to a useful 127 degrees,
which is about where we need it to be. Don’t get too
ambitious here and the very maximum is 40 thou (one
mm), which lifts the transfer timing to just over 130
degrees."

"For those who dislike such work or can’t hold the liner
with confidence, an easy alternative is to ‘notch’ the
piston top where it relates to the two transfer port
windows. The marks previously put on the piston crown
are where the top can be notched down to open the ports
slightly earlier. This is done with the piston being handheld
to enable a small fine file where the notches are
carefully filed into place with a shallow angle. But due to
the way the top of the piston sides form the vital working
seal against the liner; nothing too deep can be risked.
Don’t extend the notches down more than 20 or at the
very most 25 thou and be careful that both are the same
depth. This should raise the transfer timing to around 126
degrees and help the 4-2-4 stunt run."
MAAA AUS 73427

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1199
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 12:53:32 PM »
Former owner believes the work was done by one Muggleton. Does that ring a bell with anyone in the UK or Oz? The motor in question has an Enya NVA, which I have in one of my LA46s to very good effect.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 01:30:32 PM »
That is indeed the man, Derek Picard! The mods were done to an LA46 NOT an LA40, so the results may not be transferable? The comment about losing power from Tim, is not so with the LA46. It has about the same grunt as the conventional set up with an APC 12.25 x 3.25.
For years I ran my LA46s bone stock as per Brett Buck's advice on not messing with engines. I came across the Derek Picard article again last year. As I regularly repair old spark engines and basket cases, I decided to give it a try, as I had a fair number of spare P/ls. The work did not take long and I was very surprised at the results, using Derek's suggested set up. I gave it a try and was most surprised at the results. A great 4-2-4 break and lots of power to spare. In fact I could tell no difference in power to the conventional LA 46 set up. No, this wasn't the head gasket patrol. I used two as I do for normal LA46 operation.
If you prefer the older 4-2-4 break to the more modern high revs, low pitch approach, then this is definitely to be considered. I did try an LA 46 without the mods and used Derek's set up  and no way was it as good as the moddified LA46. It was more prone to winding up in a breeze, but then most older 4-2-4 suffer this problem in spades.
I would not agree with the article as printed as it was saying that any one could do the mods. Having seen the ham fisted results of people that have not a clue, doing mods. I cannot agree that anyone should attempt this. Those with the necessary skill will finish up with an excellent 4-2-4 engine.

Regards,

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Steve Helmick

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10265
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 02:28:37 PM »
Tom Muggleton did engine reworking in the 1990's, making "Happy Camper" engines. As I recall, he did mostly OS FP's and Tower .40's. The Tower .40's, he would convert to twin BB's on the crank. I'm pretty sure I saw his ads in Stunt News, and that he was someplace in the So.Cal. area.

I'm a believer in leaving modern engines pretty much alone and just running them where they're happy. However, I've always thought that chamfering the edge of the piston at the ports made a lot more sense than messing with the liner, where you might well start the plating to peeling. But IF you want to run a 4-2-4 run in an OTS or Classic model, I think you've got a gem, so enjoy it. Please let us know how it runs, what prop it likes, and what Brett says about it! IMO, the best thing about the newer engines is that there is a good solid mount for a muffler, plus suitable fuel is easier to obtain at the LHS.   D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1199
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 03:19:25 PM »
Thanks guys! I will give it a go in the Smoothie next weekend (it now has otherwise identical stock LA40) and report back. If it has the right kind of stunt power it may find a home in the 52 Nobler that is about to maiden. Will start with APC 11-4 and see what it thinks. It is still a modern engine and probably will be closer to a wet 2 than 1960-type 4-2-4.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2016, 06:47:15 AM »
Hello Mike,
If it is anything like the LA46, then you should be able to go from a wet two to a good 4-2-4.I await your trials with interest, as I have a spare LA40 and it doesn't run like the LA46 in a wet two, in fact it isn't nearly as good a stunt engine as the 46. So if you get a decent 4-2-4 out of it, then my spare LA40 will get the treatment.
That is unless someone knows how to get a really good stunt run out of the 40? All suggestions will be given a try, unless I have tried them beforehand!

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1199
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2016, 09:37:55 PM »
Here in NorCal we are doing our best to imitate your English summer weather, cool foggy overcast with a bit of rain and heavy mist, at least along the coast. So, my experiments should be transferable to your locale.

There is little doubt the LA40 is not as out-of-the-box great as the LA46, but its not bad, either. I have two that I run with APC 11-4 in a not quite wet 2, with lap times around 5.4 on 60-foot eye to eye lines (Smoothie and now a Half Fast III combat model from the 50s). This does not provide a 4-2-4 "stunt run" but is more like the modern higher-rev flat pitch "stunt run." I am a believer in running modern engines as they were designed to be run.

That said, it would be fun to have a 4-2-4 run from a modern engine. If the wind is not too much on Sunday I will give it a go and write up the results.

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2016, 06:49:51 PM »
I put an LA 40 in a Smoothie.  Didn't do anything to it except make the venturi smaller.  About .257(F drill) and an OS Needle valve. On the 40 a Master Airscrew 10/5 cut down 3/16-1/4 off the tips seems to work well even in a 4 stroke.  A little leaner and it starts to break.
phil Cartier

Offline Steve_Pollock

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 253
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 12:46:57 PM »
Tapering the outside of the cylinder smooths the flow into the compustion chamber.  If the lower edge of the intake port is left as is, the timing will not be changed, although more fuel/air will enter the chamber.  If the lower edge of the intake port is moved down, the intake period will be increased.  George Moir wrote about it in the March, 1955 issue of MAN when he described the changes he made to convert a Fox .29 into a winning B-TR engine.  A picture of the modified cylinder is shown in the accompanying picture.

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13756
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2016, 02:19:53 PM »
Tapering the outside of the cylinder smooths the flow into the compustion chamber.  If the lower edge of the intake port is left as is, the timing will not be changed, although more fuel/air will enter the chamber.  If the lower edge of the intake port is moved down, the intake period will be increased.  George Moir wrote about it in the March, 1955 issue of MAN when he described the changes he made to convert a Fox .29 into a winning B-TR engine.  A picture of the modified cylinder is shown in the accompanying picture.

If you copy that on a  LA 40, its a great way to kill your engine, first off this is a loop charged motor  and has zero problems getting enough charge into the cylinder , second that looks like you will induce  lots  of SPI , not needed or wanted on a
LA engine, plus all the grinding on the sleeve  does little to nothing positive for modern loop charged engines

Randy

Offline Steve_Pollock

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 253
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2016, 04:44:16 PM »
Randy, I agree -- I was just illustrating an extreme instance of removing the sharp edge (tapering the intake or bypass) from the lower outside edge of the port.  Breaking or smoothing the outside edge of a port should improve the flow into the cylinder.  If the upper and lower edges of the inside of the cylinder remain unchanged, the timing will be unchanged.

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13756
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2016, 08:39:56 PM »
Randy, I agree -- I was just illustrating an extreme instance of removing the sharp edge (tapering the intake or bypass) from the lower outside edge of the port.  Breaking or smoothing the outside edge of a port should improve the flow into the cylinder.  If the upper and lower edges of the inside of the cylinder remain unchanged, the timing will be unchanged.

Hi Steve

That is correct but does not apply to the  LA 40, charging design is light years different, the FOX you show is based on 1920s  technology
The LA 40 has zero problems getting enough charge in ethe cyclinder
That is what i was pointing out, and  YES  I have seen engines come into my shop ground like this... and  many other ways

Randy

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14473
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2016, 10:16:37 PM »
Mike:

First, be sure to enthuse about the performance the next time you're at a contest with Brett Buck.  Perhaps at arms length or more.  Please send me a movie.

   I am not against modifications or changes - if you tried it stock first, and then attempted to correct the issues you found. Ask Randy - David, Ted, me, and maybe Paul Walker were/are on the permanent poo-poo list for going off the reservation from Randy's excellent stock system setup for both the PA40 and PA61.  

  What frustrates me is when guys take good engines out of the box, then either send them to some supposed expert to get "fixed", or take a known good system and then make significant changes because they heard it might be better, or because they want to brag to their buddies about their "Joe Blow 56".  Then complain that they don't work. Usually this uses ideas from the late 70's/early 80s (drop the liner, raise the intake, add 400 head gaskets and use the biggest prop you can find) that didn't work very well even then when there was little alternative. The ST60 wasn't a particularly good stunt engine, but it was a lot better than a 45FSR that got hacked up by every guy with a Dremel tool. We even saw an example of *reverse blowdown" in an otherwise perfectly fine ST51 fully documented on SSW.

      A good engine run used to be a very rare thing, and I just hate to see people making the same old mistakes we made back in the supposed "good old days" when far better approaches are easily available and well-documented.

    I actually have no idea whether the 40LA modifications described here are necessary or beneficial. I also don't know what these mods were intended to fix.

    Brett


Offline Andrew Tinsley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2016, 04:49:02 AM »
Hello Brett,
The mods were not intended to fix anything, the LA 46 and to a lesser extent the LA 40 are great just out of the box. I ran LA46's on the higher revs, low pitch props and a wet two for many years.
I just happened to re read about Dennis Picard's mods a year ago. When I first read it, my reaction was the same as yours "leave well alone". However, second time around, II thought that many old timers like the 4-2-4 break mode of engine operation........... OK I know that it is as dead as a dodo for top class competition, but I suspect the majority of weekend fliers are as old as me and prefer the old style of running.
BMFA Number 64862

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13756
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2016, 12:46:10 PM »
Both the  LA 40  and 46 can easily be setup to run a 4/2, although it is a higher RPM 4/2 than a classic fox or  ST run
The 40 will run a nice 4/2 on an 11 x 4.5  prop, the 46  will do this nicely on a 46
Both need to have the venturie sized properly in conjunction to the needle valve assembly, this has been the biggest cause of bad runs I have seen with OS FP and LA engines. and others . Most of these is because of way too large venturies or too thin NVAs
They also respond better to the NVA setup in the front of the engine, and some will need 1   one   extra head shim
Retime is also and option, but you really need to know exactly what your doing, I have seen way too many engines killed by bad custom work on the sleeve and piston.
This is best left to experts and is not necessary to get a nice stunt run

Randy

Offline Andrew Tinsley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
Re: LA40 with modified piston to alter port timing
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2016, 02:37:26 AM »
Hello Randy,
I agree with just about everything you said. The retiming mod that Picard published, lowers the rpm at which the break occurs and is more in line with the old style of running a break.
I heartily endorse your comments about venturis and NVAs. I would not recommend anyone to attempt the mods unless they know exactly what they are doing. As you said, more engines are ruined by people who fiddle around and have not a clue as to what they are doing.
I like the ability to modify the piston rather than the sleeve, like you I am not too sure how the plating would react on an LA liner and I don't want to find out the hard way.

Andrew.
BMFA Number 64862

Tags: