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Author Topic: JIS screwdriver bits  (Read 5806 times)

Offline Bill Johnson

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JIS screwdriver bits
« on: December 09, 2015, 07:15:35 PM »
I finally located someone who sells "Apex" style JIS bits. Motion Pro, a motorcycle repair website, has the JIS bits. 2-packs of #1 and #2 are $3.50 each.

http://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0576
http://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0577
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 09:16:32 AM by Bill Johnson »
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Bill

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 AM »
MATCO Tools sells them as well. I'm sure  MAC and Snap-On  sell them as well. H^^.

   The improvement from using the proper screwdrivers is astonishing. The Japanese standard cross-head screws are indicated with a little "dot" punched into the head, so you can tell the difference between those and other types of cross-head screws. Using the proper driver in the Japanese screws generally works better than Allen head screws and there is more-or-less no way for them to slip and damage the screw. They are much closer to the screws used in jewelery and cameras.

     Regular Phillips with a standard, correct, Phillips head, is *intended* to slip out. That works fine if the head is hardened, and destroys the slots quickly of the heads are not hardened. That, and using too small a driver, is why Phillips head screws have such a bad reputation.

   Note also that the shallower JIS standard works very well on regular Phillips, but  a Phillips driver in a JIS screw is terrible, because the driver bottoms out, and you don't get contact all the way to the ends of the slots.

     You can easily grind a regular Phillips to the shallower angle of the JIS standard, then blunt the tip, and you are set. The Hozan and Vessel sets are pretty good, but careful work can get your Craftsman to work just as well.


    Brett

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2015, 06:56:55 AM »
For whatever reason the Motion Pro #1 fits Fox 'phillips' screws perfectly!

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2015, 10:17:43 AM »
   a Phillips driver in a JIS screw is terrible, because the driver bottoms out, and you don't get contact all the way to the ends of the slots.
Brett

Brett, you got that right! I found out trying to remove some head screws. I've modified plenty of screwdrivers for different purposes but I'm just buying the right ones for this. I have about 50 old OS and Enya engines now and just about all of them need work of some sort. No point in damaging any of these screws that are still good and I'm certainly not replacing them all with cap screws.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 11:16:07 AM »
Brett, you got that right! I found out trying to remove some head screws.

    I know for certain that there are two street/trail Suzuki 90s running around in the world with completely rounded-off "phillips head" screws, and marks from vice-grips around the outside.

    Another big issue, and particularly bad with model engine head bolts, is using a driver that is too small. The correct one (Phillips, JIS, even slotted) is the biggest one that can possibly fit. It usually looks ridiculous using a giant screwdriver on a tiny screw, but that's what it needs. Unfortunately, many times for head bolts, the right-sized driver won't fit in the head fins because the shaft is far too wide. They make electrical parts screwdrivers that are relatively narrow, but you might still have to grind them down on the outside edges to get them to fit.

   This was a big problem on the ST46 even with the slotted screws, because even the narrow electrical parts screwdriver of the correct size was about a factor of two too big. I eventually got a small cylindrical screwdriver and then greatly blunted the tip to get it the right width. I still keep that in the box with the ST parts. The Craftsman that fits in the head fins is probably 1/3 the thickness it needs to be.

   You shouldn't be able to rock it back and forth for any appreciable distance, if you can,  it is too sharp. With a proper fit, there is essentially no "slop", if you turn the handle, either the screw moves or the shaft twists.

   Get it to fit right and the screws themselves are fine, even the Fox screws.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 11:39:23 AM »
   Get it to fit right and the screws themselves are fine, even the Fox screws.

I know you don't like socket-head screws, but if you get good quality screws and good quality drivers then everything just fits -- you don't need to have a huge collection of nearly-the-same-sized screwdrivers just because of the huge plethora of "standard" sizes out there.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 01:15:31 PM »
I know you don't like socket-head screws, but if you get good quality screws and good quality drivers then everything just fits -- you don't need to have a huge collection of nearly-the-same-sized screwdrivers just because of the huge plethora of "standard" sizes out there.

  I have nothing at all against socket-head screws. I merely disagree with someone taking a brand new engine and ritualistically discarding some of the parts - in this case, superior parts -  because they don't know to get the right $4 screwdriver. Or to cover virtually the entire range of modeling alternatives, 2 $4 screwdrivers (an JIS #1 and #2 pretty much cover the range of both JIS screws and Phillips for model engine applications).

    If you want exhume Mr. Garofali and berate his corpse for making the ST46 head fins too deep for the screw he chose, knock yourself out. I have the original slotted screws in my remaining 46, and all the others have 5-40 Socket Cap Screws from McMaster. 

    Brett

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 02:04:36 PM »
  I have nothing at all against socket-head screws.     Brett

I don't either. In fact, I prefer them but looking at 50 engines with JIS screws, the vast majority of which are just fine, it just makes sense to spend the $10 I did to get 4 JIS bits. Two #1 and two #2. And I like the geometry of the JIS screws. Much better then Phillips.

I still will use cap screws for mount bolts and mufflers just because the need for periodic retorquing and often require a ball driver to get to it.

Slotted screws I have completely covered with a very good Brownells gunsmithing screw driver set. From the smallest to largest diameter screw, there are bits in 4 or 5 thicknesses in each diameter. That came in handy when Ty gave me a ST 46.
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Bill

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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2015, 07:42:59 PM »
I get what Brett is saying in regards to a new and clean head but can't get past the fact that a used, oily and most probably gritty JIS head (or indeed any tapered fitting socket) needs to be in intimate face to face (as in fully home) contact to reduce 'camming' out under torque and the grunge prevents this a lot of the time.

A constant section tool like a hex key doesn't have the same exact needs.
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Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 05:51:55 PM »
I just purchased a JIS phillips on Ebay , works better than standard phillips on Enya 45 head screws, Anyone know where to get the
weird size Enya 45 head screws , and crankcase in socket head configuration

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2015, 12:23:26 PM »
I just purchased a JIS phillips on Ebay , works better than standard phillips on Enya 45 head screws, Anyone know where to get the
weird size Enya 45 head screws , and crankcase in socket head configuration

Walter, these guys carry a great supply of metric cap screws. http://rtlfasteners.com/
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Bill

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Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2015, 01:18:53 PM »
Walter, these guys carry a great supply of metric cap screws. http://rtlfasteners.com/

The Enya 45 older series used 3.5 mm screws. 3.5x8mm for the case and 3,5x10mm for the head.
Here is the rub though You cannot find/buy a 3.5x10 mm socket head anywhere. I asked Micro fasteners about it and he said that he could get me some but it would be about 1000 of them. Apparently they are only production screws. I also checked RTL with similar results. I bought 3.5x12 and made 10's out of them.
Others may have a source for them but Mcmaster's didn't have them either. Perhaps some specialty sources.
For Brett Buck. I sold a bunch of  new Fox 19/25PB and 15bb engines. Duke Fox loved 3-48/2-56 cheap soft screws. I saw too many of them with screws so buggered you had no chance of getting the head off without grinding the fins and slotting the screw head. I replaced everyone of them all the engines I sold with cap screws simply to give the buyer a fighting chance if disassembly was required. Not everyone has a #1 screwdriver.





Dennis
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 01:36:14 PM by dennis lipsett »

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 01:55:44 PM »
I saw too many of them with screws so buggered you had no chance of getting the head off without grinding the fins and slotting the screw head.
Dennis

Try drilling the head off screws, lifting the now undamaged head clear and then slotting the remaining shafts.

Much better than 'grinding the fins!' :)
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2015, 04:06:39 PM »
Well, my JIS bits came in and I put them to work right away. Disassembled a couple old OS .15s and an Enya 45. Even though the heads on the OS were pretty rounded out by an SAE bit, they came out with no problem. Good thing because it appears those are the never-to-be-found-again 2.8mm screws!
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Bill

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Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2015, 08:20:21 PM »
Bill and Dennis thanks for the information.

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: JIS screwdriver bits
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2015, 06:00:54 AM »
Try drilling the head off screws, lifting the now undamaged head clear and then slotting the remaining shafts.

Much better than 'grinding the fins!' :)

True enough Chris, But somehow grinding on a Fox engine has always been sort of therapeutic to me in a sadistically sort of way. LOL

Dennis


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