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Author Topic: Head shape  (Read 1728 times)

Offline ash

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Head shape
« on: February 19, 2008, 05:07:37 PM »
More annoying engine questions...

What exactly is the head shape people refer to as "hemi" in stunt engines?

I thought it was the usual hemisperical bowl (say half to 2/3 the bore diameter) surrounded by a squish band as in most OS schneurle ported engines and the like, but I've seen comments that suggest something different.

Is it a wider bowl with less or nil squish?
Is it just to distinguish from the wedge shaped combustion chamber on baffled engines?
Something else?
Pictures?

Thanks
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 04:54:35 PM by ash »
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 09:00:30 PM »
The hemi refers, IMO, to a bowl shaped chamber with no squish band at the edges.  Anything with a squish band should be referred to as a squish band head.  This nomenclature gets really confusing, because merely cutting the inside corner off the squish band and rounding it can be called a hemi conversion.  Other common head types are a wedge, like a stunt fox, seen with baffle pistons, a trumpet, like a Cox tee dee, and a double bubble, a squish band with a first bowl inside the band, and a second deeper bowl inside the first.  For our purposes, squish band and hemi are what is most common.  The hemi shape seems to give a slower burn, and a smoother break.  As originally  configured, the squish band head was used for racing.  The idea was to get the deck height small enough to make the piston come within 10 thou or so of the head, and force all of the mixture to rush to the center bowl at the instant of ignition.  This generated extreme turbulence and rapid flame travel, which made the combustion rapid and the break somewhat harsh.  Stunt engines typically have more deck height, say 15 to 20 thou, but the  harsh quality of the break seems to persist as log as the squish band is left square.  Tom H.

Offline ash

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 03:46:55 AM »
Thanks for that Tom. That tells me that I guessed right. And it reminds me of another mystery...

Double bubble heads. They used to be all the rage in F2D engines a while ago. What do they offer a stunt engine that a single radius squish band head doesn't? My GMS 76 head is a double bubble shape.
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 06:54:47 AM »
Not a thing... In order to get the break right for stunt purposes, the deck height gets so high that there is no practical difference between a single or double bubble. The double bubble does have some effect for racing applications.  Tom H.

Offline Bob Zambelli

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2008, 06:57:29 AM »
Hi, Mr. Ash.
Back when I was using engines without valves, I did a bit of tinkering with head modifications, experimenting with different combustion chamber radii and squish band configurations.  Frustrated by the runaway characteristics of some Schnuerle ports engines, I developed this for my own FP .40 before doing it for anyone else. This is the setup that worked best for me. So far, every one of the many I've done has produced favorable results. Since performing the mod, I have NEVER seen a runaway. Note that the dimensions are in inches.
I once modified two FP’s for a friend – one by the mod you see here, the other by cutting the sleeve and changing the blow-down. The head mod actually worked better.
So far, I have done OS FP’s (both .35 and .40), Tower .40’s and K&B .40’s.

Keep in mind that there was no analytical approach to this problem - strictly empirical.

Bob Z.

As always the caveat - individual results may vary.



Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 07:07:01 AM »
That mod should lower the effective Compression Ratio quite a bit, too. Right, Bob???

(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
AMA 495785 League City, TX

Offline Bob Zambelli

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 07:28:37 AM »
Ralph - you're correct. I should have measured the relative volumes and recalculated the compression ratio - but I was a bit lazy.

Anyhow, when I converted the plane to a 4 stroke engine, I gave the FP 40 away.

Bob Z.

Offline ash

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 01:24:27 PM »
Thanks Bob, that picture really tells the story. I'll put that one away for my FP40 when it comes time to build a classic model for it.

The compression question links up with my other enquiry... What kind of compression ratio are you typically ending up with after such a mod? It seems like a much bigger change than a few head gaskets will get you. Can someone give me some before/after figures for compression ratio changes?

« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 02:59:17 PM by ash »
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Willis Swindell

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 04:02:49 PM »
I always thought adding head gaskets was like retarding the spark. I set the glow plug where I want it then open the head up until I get the run I want. That way I think you don’t loose as much power as jacking the head up. This is the same thing Bob Z did but for a different reason.
Willis

Offline ash

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 11:53:29 PM »
I took to my GMS76 head with the lathe and did some test flying today. The geometric compression ratio is at about 8.4:1 now. I have no idea if that is in the right ballpark, but is certainly running more like I want it to.

It could use a little more power or perhaps it just needs pitch. Its fine in level flight and is doing a subtle but undefined 2-4 kind of thing, but seems to lose power or slow down too much in loops and overhead and then as you pull out, it picks up for a lap before settling back down to an easy 4-stroke.

What does that sound like? Undercompressed? Tank issues?
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2008, 07:22:09 AM »
 Sounds like it might be undercompressed.  The runaway can be controlled by increasing the dead volume of the chamber, but at the cost of losing too much the torque the engine is capable of.  As a check bump the nitro by 5% and try again.  If the torque comes up, then its definitely undercompressed.  Try lapping the head to the sleeve with rottenstone and running with no gasket.  If still low on torque, turn the head and take about .020 off the sleeve mating face.  Lap that fit and try again.  If you have access to a compression guage, try getting a handle on where the hand flip pressure should be by oiling the engine and flipping it.  Careful with a guage, there are at least separate brands from I4C and Tower, and the calibrations are not trustworthy because the dead volume of the guage is too great a percentage of the dead volume of the chamber itself.  So its good for comparison purposes only.  Keep posting, we'll get it to chugging merrily up the grade and slowly down the other side.  Tom H.

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2008, 12:04:34 PM »
I have controlled runaway in a K&B 4011 by running a smaller venturi.  Prop choice also has something to do with runaway, or at least excessive windup.  If you let your fox 35 get enough castor crud on the outside, it will heat up and runaway on you.  Clean it up and problem solved. 

Have any of you compared a head which is a tight slip fit into the liner with one of the usual with several thou clearance?

Online RandySmith

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Re: Head shape
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2008, 04:25:08 PM »
Thanks Bob, that picture really tells the story. I'll put that one away for my FP40 when it comes time to build a classic model for it.

The compression question links up with my other enquiry... What kind of compression ratio are you typically ending up with after such a mod? It seems like a much bigger change than a few head gaskets will get you. Can someone give me some before/after figures for compression ratio changes?



Hello

Most of the cutting on heads or adding gaskets is done to drop C/R and help to make the 4 cycle and 2 cycle closer together in power.
When the new Loop ported ( Schnuerle ) engine came in they also normally came with a much higher C/R than the engines most stunt flyers were used to, hence the reason you heard about so many "runaway" problems.
 These engines made a huge amount more power in a 2 stroke than the older stunt engines.

Example  a late version ST 46  with the higher compression head has a C/R of 11.5 to 1
The OS FSR came with a C/R of almost 16 to 1
The FOX 35 has a C/R of about 5 to 1

Much of the evils that were heaped upon these engines for being modern loop charged (Schnuerle) engines were really due to the huge increase in C/R  ratios

When a OS FSR kicked into a 2 stroke it was off to the races, mAny people "tamed" these  by cutting the  heads and lowering C/R and also  using  a much bigger, flatter pitched prop to absorb more of the HP the motor developed.
This brought the 4 cycle - 2 cycle  power back much closer together.
Doing the above plus retiming the engine , later  brought much much better results  with much more well behaved mild running engines

Regards
Randy


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