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Author Topic: general setups  (Read 2289 times)

Offline airbrush

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general setups
« on: April 09, 2006, 11:06:48 PM »
Hello,
   Do people run engines like the LA40 in a 2x4 break? I was wondering, because I seem to remember
being told that only the old bypass ported engines would do this. I have seen video of the nats where
people using modern powerplants use pipes and a constant engine run.
  Also, if a modern engine will 2x4 break, can an RC engine be made to do this by locking the throttle
wide open and adjusting the needle?
  If people aren't using the 2x4 on these unpiped engines, are they just running them wide open
and changing props till they get a "constant" speed?

airbrush
aka  (james)

Offline Bill Little

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Re: general setups
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2006, 06:40:06 AM »
Hi James,

I wouldn't say that people are running the engines wide open when running a 2 cycle.  Basically you are shooting for a point where the engine is in a steady 2 cycle, but still has room before going over lean. 

Pipe engines, like the PAs I run, are in a very fast 4 cycle when in level flight with just a "chirp" at the tops.

Even the BBTU for the OS 20FP is not wide open, just in a steady 2 cycle.  This prevents the engine sagging from going over lean in manuevers.

Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Mike Clark

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Re: general setups
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2006, 07:16:30 AM »
Hi airbrush,

Yes the complete line of LA engines will 4/2 with out any trouble. These engine will also run a fast four/two stroke run or a Wet 2 stroke run. All three styles of engine operation are available.

Most Advance or Expert flyers use piped engines for power and constant air speed.  Most fly a wet two stroke and the engine will break a little as the flyer pulls verticle to add a little more power to perform a manuver.
While watching the NATs on film is great, in person it is an experience.

Modern R/C engine have boost ports and as configured will not run a 4/2 break. All R/C engines will need some work before a 4/2 run is an option. Locking the throttle will not do away with the hi speed jet adjustment on the carb. The best solution is to loose the carb for a venturi & needle valve install a tongue muffler and try to acheve a wet two stroke run.
 
If you are meaning R/C engines? That's pretty much close to the truth buit easier said than done.

Mike Clark




 
Mike Clark

Offline RandySmith

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Re: general setups
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 01:59:34 PM »
Hello,
   Do people run engines like the LA40 in a 2x4 break? I was wondering, because I seem to remember
being told that only the old bypass ported engines would do this. I have seen video of the nats where
people using modern powerplants use pipes and a constant engine run.
  Also, if a modern engine will 2x4 break, can an RC engine be made to do this by locking the throttle
wide open and adjusting the needle?
  If people aren't using the 2x4 on these unpiped engines, are they just running them wide open
and changing props till they get a "constant" speed?

airbrush
aka  (james)



Hi James

You can run the OS LAs in a  fast 4-2  break, or a rich 2 cycle ,they work nicely that way .
Almost NO ONE is running pipe setups in a  2 stroke.  95% of all people running pipe setups are using the old 4-2  or  very strong 4 cycle with beeps of a 2 cycle at the top of manouvers. Most are in  a  very solid  4 stroke, and  some  never get out of a  4 stroke.

Regards
Randy

Offline airbrush

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Re: general setups
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2006, 05:21:55 PM »
Hello,
  Thank you all for  the info!. My understanding in that area was very "muddy", to say the least.
I plan on attending the June 3rd event in Huntersville NC (if I don't have to work). Hopefully
seeing and hearing it "live" and  meeting some of the people there will not refog this ol noggin'.
  later,
airbrush,
(james)

Offline Bill Little

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Re: general setups
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 08:27:31 PM »
HI James,
Looking forward to meeting you in June.  That is unless you live close by and we can meet sooner!  Where are you located?
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline airbrush

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Re: general setups
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2006, 06:00:14 PM »
Hello Bill,
  I live right smack dab in da middle of NC!! hehe
More specificaly Randleman, right between Asheboro
and Greensboro.
  I haven't flown in a while, but I can probably have ol'
"splinter" (a TF tutor that is now  mostly splinters and
glue ) back together in a day.
  At the moment I'm following the online class to build
a vector40 (will probably make a profile version
alongside to have a "intro" to the 40).
  I look forward to meeting you at Hunterville. I'll be
the fat guy with an airbrushed shirt, and a "hair-cut
with a hole in it" *<]8)

Offline Bill Little

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Re: general setups
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2006, 07:32:47 PM »
Hello Bill,
  I live right smack dab in da middle of NC!! hehe
More specificaly Randleman, right between Asheboro
and Greensboro.
  I haven't flown in a while, but I can probably have ol'
"splinter" (a TF tutor that is now  mostly splinters and
glue ) back together in a day.
  At the moment I'm following the online class to build
a vector40 (will probably make a profile version
alongside to have a "intro" to the 40).
  I look forward to meeting you at Hunterville. I'll be
the fat guy with an airbrushed shirt, and a "hair-cut
with a hole in it" *<]8)

Hi James,  You're about 45 minutes from me.  Just down 220 (I-73-74) and off to 211 past Pinehurst to Aberdeen.  Been to Randleman plenty of times! 

I am going to get together soon with Thomas Dugan (Fayetteville) who's starting back into this, and Phil Green (Hope Mills) also a retread.   Phil comes over to build almost every weekend.   My son, Aaron (he flies Advanced), is 30 miles North of me in Sanford.
Maybe we can all get together on a weekend soon!  Gotta burn some fuel before Huntersville!!!!!!
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: general setups
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2006, 12:21:46 PM »
I feel like adding my two cents here...  This is all from first hand experience and my impressions...

The high rpm/low pitch run style as I understand it developed as a work around for the schneurle engine run away.  The run away is defined as setting the needle on the ground, and it stays at that setting in the air until sometime after the first few maneuvers where suddenly it picks up a bunch of RPM and flies out the tank in a fast 2 cycle to the tune of 4.5 second lap times.  The problem comes from using RC engines that are tuned for high RPM power and are controlled by the carb.  When used with a venturi they tend to run away.  Workarounds include reducing compression, restricting exhaust with mufflers, restricting intake with smaller venturi's, etc.  While any number of these work arounds can work for an indiscriminate period of time they usually tend to act up at the worst possible time (at the contest during an official flight) resulting in over runs and/or sloppy maneuvers.  By running a lower pitch prop and setting the needle to a higher RPM the engine is already closer to its peak and is less likely to run away.  But, the plane typically is flying faster, or at least a consistent speed through all maneuvers and doesn't provide the throttle action of a 4-2-4 break. 

These 'runaway' characteristics are normally applied to the OS FP series.  The LA series is basically a cosmetic update to the FP series, incorporating the gimmick square head, etc to make the RC guys feel like they're keeping up with the Jones'.  At the same time the LA seems to lack a lot of the quality and finesse of the FP.  Note the plastic (cheap) backplate, phillips screws, heavy RC muffler, RC style remote needle, etc.  The only real difference in the LA is the lack of a boost port in most of the later ones that cuts the power output.  This isn't anything new, since people were stuffing the boost port on FP's a long time ago.  The problem is that the LA still is capable of running away, and while I've gotten a few good runs out of the one I've tried, I don't see it as being enough better then the FP to justify changing over.

Even with a constant speed, its not really constant because the plane is going to slow down in climbs and accelerate in dives.  The point I want to emphasize here is that you have to react quicker when dealing with a high rpm/low pitch configuration because the plane doesn't slow down for you.  With a 4-2-4 the engine comes on and speeds up when you're climbing, and slows down when you're diving, resulting in more time to react and a more consistent speed overall. 

The entire need for a work around for the run aways was because there weren't many C/L engines being produced.  Just the Fox 35, the OS FP's, and some of the more unusual imports like the Enya and Merco.  The Fox 35 is fairly tempermental and is low on power for most designs, so its discounted leaving only the OS as a viable option for many people.   That's what has led to their popularity. 

The persuit of the 4-2-4 break (note the 4 at the end, cause it comes back to the 4) is how the engine reworking community has succeeded.  Several cottage industry engine specialists have popped up and have modified engines to run more suitably for C/L stunt.  Having run several engines that have been reworked, I can tell you some are better then others.  Unfortunately I would say my opinion is that its better to buy an engine that will run a 4-2-4 to begin with, rather then try to reinvent the wheel.

I've found a couple engines that run a very nice 4-2-4 break, there are others I'm sure, but these are the ones I've tried that I can vouch for...

Fox 35
OS Max-S 35
Super Tigre 46
Super Tigre 51

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: general setups
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2006, 02:20:05 PM »
Andrew,

I agree mostly with what you say - our experiences track well. However, I can add some thoughts for your consideration...

I've been messing with our stunt-type engines since the 1950's, so the parade has been visible since purt near when it started.

You got it dead right about break to 2-cycle meaning more power, but I wonder if the engine speeds up immediately when the firing mode breaks... It would still sound TWICE as fast even if it DIDN'T pick up any RPM! In 4-cycle mode, the engine misses fire about every other rotation; in two- mode it fires just about every time.

And we're together about the constant-two cycle engine changing RPM because of climbs and dives. I'd add that there's a LOT of drag in the sharp maneuvers, and that slows the model, thus the prop, thus the engine, too. But, under load, it may be in two-cycle mode and sound faster!

Bill Netzeband had another explanation of the schneurle engine 'runaway.' And it wasn't only shcneurles that did it. Loads (climbs, dives, maneuvers) work the engine harder. Harder work means more heat. When the bypass areas get too hot - Bill found - an engine could break in to two, pre-heat the charge going up to the combustion chamber, where it would fire more easily: result? No break back to four, continued extra heating, and a thrilling ride for the flier until the fuel is gone.

Another thought: the classic 4/2/4 (I like that usage!) engines didn't have a whole lot of RPM range in 2-cycle on usable props. The RC-intended newer engines have. 2-cycling is more their natural mode than 4/2/4. To make them run 4/2/4 might need to drag them way down on their power curve. Doesn't make sense. If they are usable by flatter pitch props and a happy light loaded 2-cycle setting, why mess with that?
\BEST\LOU


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