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Author Topic: Fuel line OS 46LA  (Read 2809 times)

Offline Dave Moritz

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Fuel line OS 46LA
« on: April 06, 2020, 12:34:33 PM »
I can't get a decent run in the air with this mill. The fuel line ID is a hair over 1/16" and fuel filter inlet & outlet are 1/16". Could these be limiting the fuel draw for an engine this size? Am I guilty of engine abuse in starving this poor critter?

Dave Mo...

PS: Ignore cross post in the crock pot thread.
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 01:12:20 PM »
Hi Dave,

A couple of questions. Is the engine stock? What size venturi are you running? Stock remote needle valve or through the venturi unit? Fuel?

Dennis

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2020, 01:30:52 PM »
I can't get a decent run in the air with this mill. The fuel line ID is a hair over 1/16" and fuel filter inlet & outlet are 1/16". Could these be limiting the fuel draw for an engine this size? Am I guilty of engine abuse in starving this poor critter?

   Assuming this is just standard Prather or Sullivan fuel line, no, that's not the problem. Even on 75/76, it runs generally fine with stock "medium" fuel line. The difference we found were occasional lean "blips" for very short durations.
 
    Dennis asked the right questions, if not stock straight out of the box, all bets are off.

     Brett

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2020, 08:09:46 PM »
Well, here goes. It has some history and modifications. The problem: I can get a steady bench run when it's mounted on the plane, but never more than 9,000 RPM on APC 11x4. In the air, it repeatedly slows down and then recovers on level flight, cuts out and dies with 1/4 or so fuel left in the tank. Run it with muffler pressure, and it croaks immediately if I pull the pressure line.

1) An Aero Products Randy #464
2) B Gardner P&L
3) Aluminum backplate
3) Outboard profile mounting on 1/8" aluminum spacers
4) Fuel 5-20, more castor than synthetic
5) Front-mounted NVA with venturi .257" and .138" needle valve barrel
6) Tank 3 oz. plastic clunk mounted up close and on engine centerline, 1/8" kicked out at rear, on thin padding
7) Leaks - none now on the line or filter. Haven't opened up this tank recently to check inside.

Have tried three other fuel tanks, playing around with head gaskets/shims, and fuel mixes.

I've got the stock P&L and am tempted to go back to that. If all bets are off, not a problem as I'm not particularly attached to this engine (it was given to me as nobody else wanted it). Hate to see it go to waste.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2020, 09:59:11 PM »
Well, here goes. It has some history and modifications. The problem: I can get a steady bench run when it's mounted on the plane, but never more than 9,000 RPM on APC 11x4. In the air, it repeatedly slows down and then recovers on level flight, cuts out and dies with 1/4 or so fuel left in the tank. Run it with muffler pressure, and it croaks immediately if I pull the pressure line.

1) An Aero Products Randy #464
2) B Gardner P&L
3) Aluminum backplate
3) Outboard profile mounting on 1/8" aluminum spacers
4) Fuel 5-20, more castor than synthetic
5) Front-mounted NVA with venturi .257" and .138" needle valve barrel
6) Tank 3 oz. plastic clunk mounted up close and on engine centerline, 1/8" kicked out at rear, on thin padding
7) Leaks - none now on the line or filter. Haven't opened up this tank recently to check inside.

Have tried three other fuel tanks, playing around with head gaskets/shims, and fuel mixes.

I've got the stock P&L and am tempted to go back to that. If all bets are off, not a problem as I'm not particularly attached to this engine (it was given to me as nobody else wanted it). Hate to see it go to waste.

Dave Mo...


     OK, can someone tell me - is the replacement liner *exactly the same* as the stock liner, with the exception of the higher quality? Or has the timing been "adjusted"?

   The obvious way to proceed is to start putting the stock parts back, one at a time, until you find the issue. The most obvious potential cause is the use of the 20/25 venturi instead of the much larger stock venturi, but even the 25FP would have no problem spinning that prop much faster than 9000.

   This seems even wimpier than Frank McCune's 46s with the 40 head.

    Brett

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 10:49:47 AM »
Brett & M-Man:

Thanks for the suggestions. Once I get the crock pot soak done, my first step will be to install the original P & L and give it a try like that. The backplate was sealed with a thin layer of white silicon, so will use that again (unless you suggest something else). Will leave everything else the same. It'll take me a while to find a crock pot, but will report back once I get a flight in.

Much obliged, good gents!

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 11:17:06 AM »
I don't have a "crock pot". [ I don' need no stinkin' crock pot!].  I have used an empty coffee can on a small electric hot plate.  Works fine.  The engine can't tell the difference.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2020, 11:42:11 AM »
We should be able to know if the liner is modified, or stock (with Brian's superior fits and workmanship). If the difference is so extreme, you should be able to just tell by eye if the timing or port dimensions are different or the same. If they are the same, this is not likely to be the problem. We are talking maybe *5000 RPM* off.

    Brett

p.s. I don't see why you need a crock pot, if you are going to replace the piston/liner first. There certainly should not be any consequential carbon or varnishing after brief bench running.

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2020, 03:42:03 PM »
Floyd: Good to know. Maybe I can chase one of those down instead.

Brett: Yes indeed I can give it the empirical test soon enough. I did some checking on the ports; they look the same just eyeballing, but I measured carefully with my dime-store calipers and came up with these numbers.

Original (with the Randy engine): Intake ports 1&2 - .433 x .195     Exhaust port - .568 x .195
Gardner liner:  Intake port 1 - .384 x .196    Intake port 2 - .397 x .196      Exhaust port - .554 x .196

Placement of these ports vertically from the liner rim was close to identical.

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2020, 06:15:09 PM »

     OK, can someone tell me - is the replacement liner *exactly the same* as the stock liner, with the exception of the higher quality? Or has the timing been "adjusted
    Brett
  Yes the timing has been adjusted, BUT THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM! I have two engines with Brian’s 46 kits installed and both are power houses! Dave did not say if he is using the Gardner head and the supplied gasket with the Gardner piston & liner. This is a must because the Gardner liner flange is .045 thicker than the stock OS 46 flange, and using the stock OS head would cause the engine to have very little compression. Gardner made the liner flange much thicker than stock to add structure to the paper thin liner cylinder.
  Dave make sure the liner is seated all the way into the case and not sitting on top of the guide pin. If you still have a problem with your engine, mail it to me and I will set it up and test it in my plane.
Al
 

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 11:18:47 AM »
Well, here goes. It has some history and modifications. The problem: I can get a steady bench run when it's mounted on the plane, but never more than 9,000 RPM on APC 11x4. In the air, it repeatedly slows down and then recovers on level flight, cuts out and dies with 1/4 or so fuel left in the tank. Run it with muffler pressure, and it croaks immediately if I pull the pressure line.

1) An Aero Products Randy #464
2) B Gardner P&L
3) Aluminum backplate
3) Outboard profile mounting on 1/8" aluminum spacers
4) Fuel 5-20, more castor than synthetic
5) Front-mounted NVA with venturi .257" and .138" needle valve barrel
6) Tank 3 oz. plastic clunk mounted up close and on engine centerline, 1/8" kicked out at rear, on thin padding
7) Leaks - none now on the line or filter. Haven't opened up this tank recently to check inside.

Have tried three other fuel tanks, playing around with head gaskets/shims, and fuel mixes.

I've got the stock P&L and am tempted to go back to that. If all bets are off, not a problem as I'm not particularly attached to this engine (it was given to me as nobody else wanted it). Hate to see it go to waste.

Dave Mo...

Dave

If it has been messed with it is not one of my motors, If it has a stock head  it is not one of my motors, ALL  LA 46s  with Brians  P/S installed  I have used  the  new head, If the timing  has been changed it is  not one of my motors, if the  engine is that down on power it could be the wrong head,  In order  to  help you  I would need to know  exactly the problems, what has been changed  and  what head it has on it, plus any other info you know of  and  what  needle it  has and  where  the needle is  front or back,  If it has a rear needle  it is  not one of my motors

Regards
Randy

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 07:04:42 PM »
Greetings All:

I just did another run on this now "mystery" motor with what appears to be the "original" P&L. I got a whopping 10,200 RPM. So something is amiss here. Likely a number of other hands went to work on this motor, for better of for worse.

My apologies to you, Randy, as I suspect that the unknown gremlins tried to "improve" any work that you might have done on this motor (if, in fact, you did work on it). If you are interested, PM me and I'll shoot you a photo or two of the motor and how I concluded that it might have passed through your hands early in its mysterious life.

Al -  a most generous offer. I'd be happy to send this conundrum to you, because my next move would be to "File 13" the whole thing. I'd hate to send you my "dirty laundry," coked up with castor and all. But antifreeze and a hot plate/crock pot just can't be had during these plague times. PM me also with an address and I'll get on it.

Thanks for all the help here!

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2020, 10:02:55 PM »
   An LA.46 ought to turn a APC 11-4 more than 10,200 RPM. That is what I tach my Gardner  LA.46 with a TT 11-4.5 on it in a 60 ounce Legacy 40 on the ground before launch and it's just in a wet-2. I have never peaked it out, and have never needed to. Also, you have not said what head was on it. It should have had a nice, shiny aluminum head that doesn't match the LA cylinder exactly. Brian only sold the P&L kits with his head for the reasons already stated, he had to make the top of the liner thicker. A stock head won't work with his liner.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2020, 08:20:35 AM »
M-man and Dan: I had two sets of P&L. One was a Gardner set and the other looked like a stock OS version. I didn't try swapping the heads around. Thanks for asking me to clarify that.

I'm trying to avoid dragging either of these two aftermarket enterprises through the mud anymore as I hear they do very good work. Will wait to hear from Al.

Much obliged, all.

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2020, 02:19:37 PM »
  Well, if you had no extra head that came with the Gardner P&L, then that is the issue. I'm surprised it even started unless you used an electric starter and a heavy prime. I don't know if the Gardner head will even let a stock set up turn over if there isn't enough clearance or not. No chance of heads being mixed up.  But still, with all stock cylinder components (P&L, head) you should still have been able to turn more than 10,000 RPM with an APC 11-4. I''l await to here what Al has to say.
   Type at you later,
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2020, 03:06:54 PM »
Dave,

Of course, there can be many things wrong that we don't know, but let's assume your engine is mechanically healthy. Meaning round things are round, fits are within norms and there are no leaks.
Apart from that, you have not mentioned what glow plug you use.
 So first thing to do would be to take a NEW plug that has a good track record with this engine.
 A second thing is what I have suggested many times before but people don't seem to take it seriously; measure the head volume with piston at tdc, and compare it with the value of another well running unit. Measuring is easy with a 2ml syringe with needle.
In the end there are no mystery engines. L

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2020, 05:46:00 AM »
Is the liner installed properly or rotated? The OS liner has a pin slot for alignment I'm not familiar with the Gardner liners.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2020, 08:28:53 AM »
Thanks again for your good thoughts, Dan.

And Lauri, these things really are simple at heart and it's just the number of permutations that gets a bit nettlesome (plugs included). What a great idea for a volume check, but I'm also likely to disappoint you because I'm confident I've not mismatched the heads. Much obliged for your suggestions. By the way, let me take a moment to complement you on the fine work you've done as shown in other forum topics.

Yup Perry, both P&L systems use the alignment pin and notch setup. I see how that could be problem if not watched when installing. Gracias!


DaveMo...

It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2020, 01:37:16 PM »

And Lauri, these things really are simple at heart and it's just the number of permutations that gets a bit nettlesome (plugs included).

   I sympathize with you, because I have seen this sort of story played out over and over and over again, at the field, and here.  The best engines we have ever had in the history of stunt are either made now, or are widely available, straight out of the box. And yet people keep fiddling with them, trying to turn back the clock to 1965. Even if "successful", it's a failure, because they started with a Formula 1 engine and wound up with a steam locomotive. But more often, it ends up like this, with a random mix of parts that have been passed from person to person, maybe good parts by themselves, but not working as a system.

   It's very frustrating to see this happen to people who just want to get something to work, time after time.

    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2020, 03:48:37 PM »
Greetings All:

I just did another run on this now "mystery" motor with what appears to be the "original" P&L. I got a whopping 10,200 RPM. So something is amiss here. Likely a number of other hands went to work on this motor, for better of for worse.

My apologies to you, Randy, as I suspect that the unknown gremlins tried to "improve" any work that you might have done on this motor (if, in fact, you did work on it). If you are interested, PM me and I'll shoot you a photo or two of the motor and how I concluded that it might have passed through your hands early in its mysterious life.

Al -  a most generous offer. I'd be happy to send this conundrum to you, because my next move would be to "File 13" the whole thing. I'd hate to send you my "dirty laundry," coked up with castor and all. But antifreeze and a hot plate/crock pot just can't be had during these plague times. PM me also with an address and I'll get on it.

Thanks for all the help here!

DaveMo...

Dave  I have  every part  there is  for the  LA,  so if I can help you  please let me know, It would be  great if  you had an engine  you could  actually use

Randy

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2020, 09:30:46 AM »
Good to know, Randy. And ah yes, Brett, a philosopher might have something to say about the human condition in all of this!

Lots of other little projects around the house that are getting attention these days, now that social activities no longer pull me away from home. Weather permitting, my stooge is getting quite the workout.

Thanks!

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2020, 10:31:20 AM »
And ah yes, Brett, a philosopher might have something to say about the human condition in all of this!

   My first impression is to quote something about "brutish and short", but given the results to date, Cervantes seems most appropriate.

     Brett

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2020, 03:22:37 PM »
M-man and all the others here:

Well, I sent it out for shipping to Al, but it appears to be MIA. It's several days overdue, and because I'm an all-around cheapskate, I didn't insure it. Just as bad, I don't even have the tracking number. Ah but that pile of receipts containing the tracking number did make a nice kindling fire in my heat stove. Drats! Will just wait & see and stay in touch with the good Al. But it doesn't look cheery.

Backup motor for the Twister: OS 35FP.

Keepin' my fingers crossed.

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2020, 05:07:02 PM »
Hi Dave, I'm happy to tell you your engine showed up in my mail box on Tuesday. I checked over all your parts and you had everything I needed to set up your engine for stunt. I did notice someone had ground off some of the metal off your crankshaft counterweight. I chose to use the Brian Gardner piston and liner kit that you had instead of the OS parts. Your engine had a lot of varnish build up on the inside and outside of the engine, so I cleaned everything up after i did some deburring. I assembled the engine and it felt great after I finished.
  I installed your engine using your muffler that I modified in my Vector with a APC 12.25 x 3.75 prop. Your engine ran great, very smooth with lots of power, doing wing-overs and loops. I did not like the way the Vector handled using your muffler, so I installed my Dinger muffler which is 2  oz lighter. I put up 4 flight patterns with great 424 engines runs, and 5.1 lap times on 60' lines. The fuel I used was Power Master GMA 10-22. The max RPM using the APC 12.25 x 3.75 was 9400. I install a APC 11 x 4 to compare to what you did, using your muffler, and the engine turned just under 11500 RPM. I am very happy with the way the engine runs, and I will box it up and mail it back to you.
Al

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2020, 10:46:23 AM »
Hello Al:

Wow, your generosity doesn't get much better than this! I'll gladly follow your setup "religiously." Good to hear that I've got a fundamentally good runner for the Twister. The problems might have been operator malfunction all along!

Hoping that I catch you before you have the works all boxed up, as omitting some of the parts could save on shipping. Speaking of shipping, the word is that delays are common in all carriers in the time of the virus.

I'll shoot you a message.

Many, many thanks for all you've done!

DaveMo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2020, 12:29:50 PM »
If it goes back to running bad on that Twister don't touch the motor!  We'll know the problem is somewhere else.  Just let us know what it's doing and we'll give you lots and lots of random opinions help.
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Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2020, 02:50:05 PM »
Right on, Tim, right on!

Dave...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2020, 08:01:12 PM »
Dave, you will need a larger tank if you want to complete the stunt pattern with the LA 46. My Vector has a 4.5 oz tank with a uniflow vent, my total run time with your engine was 7 minutes. Here in NJ engines tend to use more fuel than other parts of the country, the elevation where I was flying is 240 feet. The prop I would try on your Twister would be a APC 11.5 x 4.
Al

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2020, 08:54:56 PM »
FYI, no shipping delays seen by me.  I ship 40 packages per week USPS, and all are arriving quickly.

And, the LA 46 rocks.  Used mine yesterday.  Five flights, five one flip starts.

Peter

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2020, 09:31:30 PM »
Dave, I mailed the engine back to you today. The postal clerk said you should receive it Monday, but there could be some delays. Let me know when it shows up. Keep me posted on how the engine works for you carving up the sky with your Twister.
Al

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2020, 09:13:03 AM »
Dave, did you receive the engine? The post office tracking reads it arrived Saturday the 9th.
Al

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2020, 11:53:55 AM »
Al et al (ha!):

Just to make this topic current. The motor has been in my hands for a couple weeks now. To say that Al did a superb job with it wouldn't be doing his work justice. Generosity backed by deep experience doesn't come often in this world, but it does on these boards, and Al exemplifies it exponentially.

I've got the motor mounted on the standard Twister. Getting the setup into the air is slow going given limited space for the uniflow tank. Had to put this project off pending completion painting my house (two primer coats and one finish coat by hand over weathered aluminum siding - ugh!).

Will report back when we are up and running.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2020, 11:57:45 AM »
What started out as a fuel line question ends up as a complete makeover for this great engine, thanks to Al Ferraro! Had the Twister out last night, and I couldn't have asked for a better running motor. I followed Al's specs to a T - uniflow, fuel, prop, etc.

Thanks to all the contributors here with a bit of extra gratitude going to Al.



It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2020, 07:54:23 PM »
   Glad you have had some success. You do have one potential issue. Think about how hot that fuel  line and filter can get sitting against the muffler.  Route that fuel line under the engine. The tank looks like it has the pick up tube coming out in a location that is intended to rout the fuel line this way. Lake sure the fuel filter doesn't touch the crank case anywhere as it can transfer some heat from the crank case and heat up the fuel, making it run lean and quit. Just measure the fuel lines as need to put the filter out of the way, and try to make the length of the fuel line as short as  possible.
  Type at you later,
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2020, 09:44:40 PM »
What started out as a fuel line question ends up as a complete makeover for this great engine, thanks to Al Ferraro! Had the Twister out last night, and I couldn't have asked for a better running motor. I followed Al's specs to a T - uniflow, fuel, prop, etc.

Thanks to all the contributors here with a bit of extra gratitude going to Al.

So it is  one  with an ABC  Gardner piston sleeve  head  setup

Randy

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2020, 12:25:10 PM »
Dan: Good catch on a potential problem with my fuel line. Will reroute accordingly. Thanks!

Randy: Yes, correct!

Dave Mo....
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2020, 02:10:44 AM »
Regarding fuel line, route through a screw eye, if needed.

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2020, 08:07:49 PM »
Another report on this motor & plane combo. Al suggested how to set the needle for a 4-2 break. It took several short-tank flights to get it figured out, but does it ever fly nicely now. Mucho kudos to Al again!!

Food for a bit more discussion. The electronic stopwatch I used only timed in full seconds, but I got six of those hummers on 62-foot lines. I suppose I could chase down a better timer, but I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to lop two feet off the lines.

Question: The 4-2 break is sweet. Any hard and fast rule for keeping it under varying temperature conditions? E.g., cooler temperatures would require a bit of needle adjustment in what direction? Or am I over thinking this?

I'm so happy with this setup that I only flew loops and wingovers. Will go back to my Rugged Stunt Trainer to improve my skills before trying too much more with this Twister/OS 46 beauty.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2020, 11:09:21 PM »
Question: The 4-2 break is sweet. Any hard and fast rule for keeping it under varying temperature conditions? E.g., cooler temperatures would require a bit of needle adjustment in what direction? Or am I over thinking this?

  Generally, cooler air is thicker, with tends to make it go lean, so you would need to open the needle to get the same "setting".  Hot air is thinner, generally requiring the needle to go in.

    However, two other things are also operating at the same time - thicker air gives you both more power, and better propellor "bite", both of which make it go faster, and hot, the converse. If you hold the same "setting", that is, the same place on the 4-2 break curve, it can go substantially faster when it is cool, and slower when it is hot. To hold the same speed, you have to exaggerate the needle motion to run further toward the 2-stroke "setting" when it is hot, and deeper into a 4 when it is cool.

  If you are using a tach, it gets even more complex, because if you set it to the same RPM, and ignore where it is relative to the 4-2 break point, you *usually* have to set it to a *lower* RPM when it is hot, and "faster" when it is cold, because depending on the prop load and how it responds, it will unload (speed up from ground to air) more in hot weather than in cold, meaning that you need to set it slower on the ground to get the target in-flight RPM.

   Depending on how the engine is set up, these effects can be pretty strong, or weak. There are a variety of ways to deal with these issues, this is a big part of learning to run them. Depending on what a particular combination does, you might change:

  prop pitch - generally more when hot and less when cold, to get the same "bite" (but maybe change the break characteristics since this also varys the load feedback during maneuvering)

 compression - more when hot, less when cold, to mitigate the power variation from varying air density OR, to make the break stronger or weaker (stronger when hot, since you need more when it it flying slower and less than you are flying faster)

venturi - bigger when hot, smaller when cold, to mitigate the power variation to retain the same "setting"

nitro - less when cold, more when hot, to maintain the same run time and same power level, and "setting"

  muffler restriction - more restriction reduces power, less increases power, also changes pressure feedback into tank.

There are a wide variety of things like this to do, they all interact, and which one works or doesn't for a particular set of conditions can only be determined by experiment. Your guesses get better as you have more experience. There are a wild array of obscure things you can do to props to make the system work differently.

  All these things are also present for tuned-pipe systems, the generally the variables are far less important because the pipe regulation RPM doesn't really change much with conditions, and the performance is generally so much higher, that even "off" a little bit you have abundant power. With 4-2 break systems you have to try to optimize them all the time, because the performance is low enough that you have to make it work nearly perfectly to just get in a good flight.

   Of the adjustments above, by far the easiest to execute,  with minimal chance of screwing up,  is the nitro. The last one you need to be dealing with is compression (which, unfortunately, seems to be the FIRST thing people do). If you are nominally running 10% in the cold, and it's hotter than normal, then try using 1 ounce of 15%, the rest 10%, so you get 12% net or something like that. My general rule is to change the nitro until the run time comes out the same at the same needle position. The fuel needs to be otherwise identical, because changing the fuel viscosity (by mixing fuel with 18% oil and fuel with 22% oil also changes the fuel viscosity, thicker, the further out the needle needs to go).

  I would suggest that to make any real sense of the problem, you are going to need to get a reliable stopwatch and learn proper techniques to time laps. You might make a change, and it feels more "powerful" or pulls harder, but you need to know whether that is because of the way you changed the characteristics, or it just sped up 2/10 of a second a lap - which will have a dramatic effect on what you feel.

   I am not trying to intimdate or discourage you, this is the reason it takes decades to become a genuine expert at all this stuff, and we are all still learning on just about every flight. You have to be very careful to control your conditions, and have a good grasp of the underlying principles. It's also why people went to tuned pipe systems as soon as it was practical, and now electric, because they are far less prone to these variations.

     Brett

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2020, 08:16:49 AM »
Brett:

Very good - it doesn't get any better than this. And I'm glad these new-fangled computers have a copy and paste function (attributions always remain in my text files)!

Many thanks for your consideration.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2020, 10:21:35 AM »
Brett:

Very good - it doesn't get any better than this. And I'm glad these new-fangled computers have a copy and paste function (attributions always remain in my text files)!

Many thanks for your consideration.

     To first approximation, just get the needling right first, get a hang for that, because it will illustrate what happens. Try to get the cold air and hot air *lap times* to be the same, and see where you end up relative to the break. What will probably happen is that you will be running richer than the break point in the cold, and leaner in the hot.

     The problem will be that when you are doing that, you will tend to lose any benefit from the break - in the cold you may never get it into a 2, and in the hot, you might get it in places you don't want it, or (unlikely) run past it and just be in a 2 all the time. Solving that issue is the first step on the learning curve. You want the breaks to happen at the same place in the morning and the afternoon, it's hard to forget about engine runs and just fly the pattern if you are getting random power changes.

   Our resident engine genius aside, if you were to start messing with adjustments, say, to the venturi, the difference you might need to resolve the hot/cold difference might well be less than .005", larger in the hot and smaller in the cold. That will alter the overall power to allow you to place your run right at the same point on the 4-2 curve - bigger venturi and you can run it "richer" to get the same power, etc. This is too touchy an adjustment  and requires disassembly and test flying between rounds at a contest.

   Most of the other adjustments are similar, any change you make to them would need to be too small (requiring more exacting control - how much do you suppose the pitch of a wood prop changes from a cool damp morning to a hot dry afternoon, just sitting there? And what can you do about it?) and have other, secondary effects.

    That's why, after you can reliably adjust the needle to null out the speed effects, I suggest start by trying to add or subtract nitro. It's very predictable and has pretty much only the effect of altering the power up and down a bit. A bunch of people think you will have to adjust the compression if you change the nitro, for stunt, they are wrong, and don't understand the issue.

To be honest with you, running it in a rich 2 *all the time* and using less pitch to keep the speed down might actually be better, depending on how big the airplane is. But you can only realistically master one skill before you move to the next.

    Brett
 

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2020, 08:39:06 PM »

Food for a bit more discussion. The electronic stopwatch I used only timed in full seconds, but I got six of those hummers on 62-foot lines. I suppose I could chase down a better timer, but I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to lop two feet off the lines.

Question: The 4-2 break is sweet. Any hard and fast rule for keeping it under varying temperature conditions? E.g., cooler temperatures would require a bit of needle adjustment in what direction? Or am I over thinking this?

I'm so happy with this setup that I only flew loops and wingovers. Will go back to my Rugged Stunt Trainer to improve my skills before trying too much more with this Twister/OS 46 beauty.

Dave Mo...
[/quote]
 Hi Dave,
        Its good that your engine is 4 stroking with your tank set up, that means you are getting plenty of fuel.
  Six second lap times is slow even using 62 ft lines, make sure you are timing accurately.  Stay with your 62 ft lines for now, just lean out the needle a little and re-time your laps. Its OK the have the engine skipping into a 2 stroke and back to 4 in level flight if that puts you in the 5.0-5.2 second lap range. Just so you know, when the engine hits a head wind it will go rich and lean out coming out of the wind.
Cooler temperatures would require you to open the needle valve, richer. It sounds like you are getting close to finding a nice engine run. Make sure you look where the needle is set for reference and adjust it a few clicks at a time till you like the run.
Al

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2020, 06:50:21 PM »
Al:  Thanks for the tip on lap times and engine runs. I'll be on the lookout for an electronic timer with better graduation and shoot for the low fives as you suggest.

Brett: Ceteris paribus, what is the effect of higher humidity on the fuel mixture, i.e., also denser air and thus a more open needle?

How do you suggest making nitro adjustments at the field and on the fly? I can envision either a set of various pre-mixes in the flight box or having a container of nitro on hand to juice the juice.

Notwithstanding all my questions, I'm most grateful to have this ship flying as well as it is.

Dave Mo...

It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel line OS 46LA
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2020, 07:00:26 PM »
How do you suggest making nitro adjustments at the field and on the fly? I can envision either a set of various pre-mixes in the flight box or having a container of nitro on hand to juice the juice.

   If you think you want a little more, put 1 ounce of 15% in your syringe, put that in, then fill the rest with 10%, or something like that. Once you narrow it down to how much nitro you need to put it within needle's range, then mix up what you need.

   All else being equal, humidity reduces the oxygen content, so more nitro, or to keep the same "setting", close the needle. That is a pretty weak effect compared to temperature (moderate) or true altitude (very strong).

    Brett



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