Author Topic: Frozen engines (Read 8566 times)

Dave_Trible · « **on:** October 12, 2013, 07:01:56 PM »

I'm looking for ideas on how others have gotten 'stuck' engines loose and working. Recently I've bought up a number of great older engines mostly from the estates of Sam8 collectors and others who took great care with the engines but still a few have been stuck. I've had pretty good luck with getting the engines partially apart then soaking them in laquer thinner. They usually soften and allow me to finish the tear down and cleaning. I just got one new era engine, an FP .40 that seems quite new but stuck really bad. I got the sleeve pryed out but the wrist pin is solid to the piston and rod. Can't get the rod to slide on the pin to get it out of the engine. I sprayed it with PB Blaster and back in the thinner. Going to try again but I'm about ready to grind the rod in two to get it out. Anybody got ideas before I get the Dremel fired up? Like to figure it out on this one as a new Super Cyclone is next on the stuck list.

Dave

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2013, 07:37:58 PM »

Have you tried the Auto Anti-Freeze and Crock Pot trick? Take an old Crock-Pot and place engines into it. Fill up with Anti-Freez and let it cook for at least overnight, maybe longer. When you turn it off, then as soon as you can handle the engine/s wash them off with a water hose. Most will turn over OK. then fill them up with any good penetrating oil. As soon as you can, remove any front and/or the back cover , front cover, head, etc. apart and clean the engine up using the old tooth-brush trick and a good cleaning oil.
Generally I find the engines ready to turn over as soon as they cool down.

BTW do not ever use that crock pot for anything other than cooking engines!

ChrisSarnowski · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2013, 07:39:51 PM »

Try either a heat gun or putting into the oven for a while to soften the dried castor.

-Chris

bill bischoff · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2013, 07:44:37 PM »

Soaking it in fuel usually works. It only takes about 15 minutes, and it's a good use for fuel you aren't going to use for flying.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2013, 08:12:38 PM »

Well I pryed , pulled and banged to no avail. These all seem like good ideas. For tonight the easiest to try is the fuel. Got some old Wildcat sitting here that might be good for something after all. Horace I've heard about the crock pot but more in relation to getting the brown tarnish off the engines. Likewise it should work to loosen one. Not sure I'm ready to part with a crock pot. If the fuel doesn't work I might try the oven.....or the Dremel. I have a couple junk FP s I can get a rod from. Just don't want all the metal chips inside the case if I can help it.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2013, 08:35:16 PM »

I have had some that were really stuborn, but usually a heat gun and PB Blaster will do the job. It some times takes several applications of both the heat and solvent. Fuel should also help. If you can get a soldering gun close to the top of the rod that will also help to heat it right where it is stuck. I use an Allen wrench to pull the rod toward the back of the case and then push it forward. Once you get it to move just a little you are on your way. Good luck.

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2013, 09:27:39 PM »

Heat. Heat, heat, and more heat. I've lost count of how many frozen engines I've broken loose with the monokote heat gun. We've also got a heavy duty heat gun for stripping paint that I use to change bearings, etc. It's a bit overkill for the usual castor stuck wrist pin. I may use a little carb cleaner, PB blaster, and air tool oil, but far and away the solution for stuck parts is to grab a heavy leather glove and heat the stuck parts until the glove starts to smoke, then they come right apart.

The crockpot is only for removing baked on castor and crud, and only on certain engines. It'll turn a Super Tigre or OS the ugliest shade of murky gray, but works OK for Foxes. Anything decent, of any value, anodized, painted, or plastic doesn't go anywhere near the crockpot, and the crockpot will never put the heat into parts like a heat gun. The heat gun also does the job in seconds vs hours.

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2013, 11:09:25 PM »

I used the oven once (when my wife was away), with an old K&B 35. It loosened right up. Heat does the trick.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2013, 01:59:31 AM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on October 12, 2013, 11:09:25 PM

I used the oven once (when my wife was away), with an old K&B 35. It loosened right up. Heat does the trick.

Oven always seems to work, just put it to 200 and wait. I sure wouldn't spend very much effort to unfreeze a 40FP, I think they are my prime candidate for an expanded "Hurl" event.

Brett

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2013, 06:55:55 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on October 13, 2013, 01:59:31 AM

Oven always seems to work, just put it to 200 and wait. I sure wouldn't spend very much effort to unfreeze a 40FP, I think they are my prime candidate for an expanded "Hurl" event.

Brett

Unfair advantage! The FP weighs more! Actually I gave next to nothing for it-12.50 including an electric starter- so couldn't leave it. We went through about four of them while training the sons-in-law and one still uses them on profiles. To me they are about the same as the LA .46. The LA .40 was the lap dog. Anyways, if I get it working I'm sure it would get used somewhere. I even have a decent Formula S set up for it hanging around toothless.

Dave

After reading that I wonder if the former owner did some damage with that electric starter....guess I'll find out.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2013, 08:16:53 AM »

It's out! Got behind it with an Allen wrench and forced the rod over after soaking in fuel all night. It's still stuck just where it looks. Will heat it up and try to get the pin out later.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2013, 03:34:37 PM »

Just to close out... Got the wrist pin out with the heat gun and a hammer. Scrubbed it all down, hit everything with the air tool oil and put the engine back together. Wow the compression! This might be the strongest FP I've seen. Thanks everybody for the shared knowledge.

Dave

steve bittner · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2013, 06:11:20 PM »

DO NOT USE HEAT GUN AFTER SPRAYING CARB CLEAN, NEVER EVER. HIGHLY FLAMABLE STUFF.

Chris Wilson · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2013, 07:51:46 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on October 13, 2013, 01:59:31 AM

I sure wouldn't spend very much effort to unfreeze a 40FP, I think they are my prime candidate for an expanded "Hurl" event.

Brett

Why Brett?

The OS Max 40 FP won the Australian National titles in 2001, 2002 and got a third in 2005.

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2013, 12:57:05 PM »

An odd added thought to this topic:

Recently I opened up a well used Fox 35 in which the varnish stuck the sleeve and cylinder together very well. Rather than set up the crock-pot thing, I tried running some Marvel Mystery around the cylinder flange at the top of the main casting and let it soak overnight. Next day most was gone. Added a bit more, and watched it soak in around the rim of the flange!

A hardwood spacer was all it needed to move the sleeve out.( I often grab a spring clothespin, take it apart, and use the small end in the port(s).)

Surprised me! MM is also a decent penetrating oil! This might not work every time and your mileage may vary, but it did, this time, for me.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2013, 01:43:51 PM »

Quote from: Chris Wilson on October 13, 2013, 07:51:46 PM

Why Brett?

The OS Max 40 FP won the Australian National titles in 2001, 2002 and got a third in 2005.

They have ruined more afternoons than all the Fox 15 and 35s combined. An entire industry exists because they needed rework. The notion that everyone needed a modified or reworked engine even to fly beginner was largely solidified by the existence of the 40FP, and we still have people cranking out modified everything else whether it's necessary or not. Mostly to modify a perfectly good engine to run like a "chugger". It's a sad situation when you have very popular 46LA modifications that put out less power than a Fox 35, and that all started with 40FPs.

Brett

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2013, 05:09:33 PM »

This is true. When the FPs first arrived we all tried to make them run like our old long stroke stunt engines- the didn't and won't. We learned to let them wind up into an rpm range they liked and prop them accordingly to get our flight speed. Conversely I burnt up a couple schnerle Tiger .51 s until I realized they DID run like the .46 long stroke.

kiwibrit · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2013, 03:53:37 AM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on October 12, 2013, 11:09:25 PM

I used the oven once (when my wife was away), with an old K&B 35. It loosened right up. Heat does the trick.

I've used the oven more than once, each time successfully. I certainly choose when to use it with care. Leaving overnight in cellulose thinners has also worked for me - but the oven has been best.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2013, 07:14:02 AM »

Well I got lucky- the Super Cyclone wasn't stuck too bad. Actually the piston was still wet with oil. The sticking was in the crankshaft. I got the backplate off and plug out then soaked in laquer thinner a few hours. Didn't need to tear it down any further. The former owner 'buggered' the needle by soldering a spring extension on and filling all the clicker knotches. If he ever tried to run the motor there was no way to keep the needle from spinning. I found the NVA from a McCoy .19 to be a perfect fit so put that in. So now it's a McClone? Ready for Checkalaroma.

Dave

Brett Buck · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2013, 11:02:23 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on October 14, 2013, 05:09:33 PM

This is true. When the FPs first arrived we all tried to make them run like our old long stroke stunt engines- the didn't and won't. We learned to let them wind up into an rpm range they liked and prop them accordingly to get our flight speed. Conversely I burnt up a couple schnerle Tiger .51 s until I realized they DID run like the .46 long stroke.

I think you will find the bore-stroke ratio not much different from something like an ST35 or 40, or any reasonably powerful engine past the Brown Jr/Ohlsson 23 era, roughly square. It's certainly not the reason it wants to run at 16000 RPM VICE 8500 like an ST46.

Bore/stroke ratio is the single most misunderstood notion in engine design. I am sure the usual suspects and various "engine experts" will rush in to call me stupid soon, so never fear!

Brett

RandySmith · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2013, 02:21:27 PM »

There were several things about the Fp series,that got people as far as running them, and made much frustration, but the single biggest thing was the 2o sized spray bar OS installed into the 35 and 40 FP, the bar was much smaller diameter than the older OS 30 , 35 and 40 stunt engines, this made the typical .275 venturi into the equivalent of one over .300. so much "runaway" was abound ! The fact that so many used the engines, or tried to, with the extra large intake size, really caused a lot of bad engine runs for people all over the planet trying to get these to run like the older OS stunt engines.
One of the others was the very tiny exhaust hole on the 35 and 40 FP engines.

On the other subject, I don;t remember many long stroke stunt engines from days past, maybe the closest to that was the G21-40

Randy

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2013, 02:57:26 PM »

'Long stroke', used by me is improper-just a habit more about describing the way the motor runs and the props it turns rather than actual stroke measurements. Earlier racing/ speed engines seemed to be pretty short to trade torque for rpm. Our stunt engines acted 'long stroke' by comparison so when the higher revving, schnurle ported engines came in they too seemed 'short stroked' in temperment. Forgive my error.

Dave

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2013, 11:20:27 AM »

Just a footnote to Brett's diatribe about reworked FP 40s which I think is totally justified.

I have run several FP 40s and found them to work well, with none of the usual howling run away. I didn't dare stick my head above the parapet for fear of getting shot. Recently Alwyn Smith posted on the Barton Forum that he cured FP40s by using the E3030 silencer which is the standard LA46 silencer. I checked my FP40s and they were fitted with E3030 silencers. Makes one think, could this be a similar thing to the FP20 / E2030 combination? I won't say how many FP20s I have stored away, because I love the BBTU FP20!

Regards,

Andrew.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2013, 12:50:12 PM »

I and the family had/have/ran 7 or 8 FPs on all the Shameless and Sukhoi airplanes for years and were quite happy with them left very stock. We just learned to let them wind up where they were happy , 9400-9700 rpm and use the APC 11x4 prop. We tried the LA. Needed the 11x5 or even 11x6 to get close to the thrust of the FP. The LA .46 on the 11x4 is nearly a direct replacement for the FP on thrust but I still think the FP .40 is stronger. (Short strokin'...LOL!)

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2013, 03:05:12 PM »

I for one love the FP series. They start evertime, one or two flips. They hold a needle setting. And I run mine on sport planes and NW Sport .40 carrier planes. I have the 843 and 3030 mufflers, doesn't seem to matter.

RandySmith · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2013, 03:33:12 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Tinsley on October 23, 2013, 11:20:27 AM

Just a footnote to Brett's diatribe about reworked FP 40s which I think is totally justified.

I have run several FP 40s and found them to work well, with none of the usual howling run away. I didn't dare stick my head above the parapet for fear of getting shot. Recently Alwyn Smith posted on the Barton Forum that he cured FP40s by using the E3030 silencer which is the standard LA46 silencer. I checked my FP40s and they were fitted with E3030 silencers. Makes one think, could this be a similar thing to the FP20 / E2030 combination? I won't say how many FP20s I have stored away, because I love the BBTU FP20!

Regards,

Andrew.

The control line FP 35 and 40 mufflers were a big part of the problem, as I stated earlier, I sold 100s of Os FP 35 and 40 Engines that i setup, NONE of them came with
the E3030 muffler, everyone I bought from the Importer came with the smaller OS 762 muffler with a tiny outlet, The OS 762 muffler was a problem with the motor runs.
The OS 762 muffler prompted many sells of better working tongue and tube mufflers for me

Randy

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2013, 02:52:42 PM »

Hello Randy,
I didn't mean to imply that my FP40s came with the E3030 muffler. I don't think that they were even current when the OS FP series were around. Most of my FP 40s came without mufflers and were second hand. Probably from people that had enough of the howling runaways. I just happened to have several E3030s to hand and used them!
If the OS 762 muffler was restrictive, wouldn't that help with curing or at least alleviating the runaway? Not trying to be smart, but just curious. As to the E3030 muffler being responsible for the civilised behaviour of the FP40, I don't have a clue. I ran the engines on an APC 11x4 too and it gave my favourite wet two style of run. Whatever was responsible for the good stunt manners of these particular FP40s, I don't know. But they are the equal of the LA46 in the planes I ran, they seem better quality than the LA46 engines as a bonus.

Regards,

Andrew.

RandySmith · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2013, 05:16:21 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Tinsley on October 24, 2013, 02:52:42 PM

Hello Randy,
I didn't mean to imply that my FP40s came with the E3030 muffler. I don't think that they were even current when the OS FP series were around. Most of my FP 40s came without mufflers and were second hand. Probably from people that had enough of the howling runaways. I just happened to have several E3030s to hand and used them!
If the OS 762 muffler was restrictive, wouldn't that help with curing or at least alleviating the runaway? Not trying to be smart, but just curious. As to the E3030 muffler being responsible for the civilised behaviour of the FP40, I don't have a clue. I ran the engines on an APC 11x4 too and it gave my favourite wet two style of run. Whatever was responsible for the good stunt manners of these particular FP40s, I don't know. But they are the equal of the LA46 in the planes I ran, they seem better quality than the LA46 engines as a bonus.

Regards,

Andrew.

Hi Andrew , the E3030 is a much better choice if your going to use a stock muffler as it is much less restrictive than the 762, and no the 762 doesn't help the runaway, it is so restrictive it helps the engine to heat up, and then helps keeps the engine running in the lean 2 cycle it just went into. The OS 762 works much better if the outlet is opened up as much as possible...meaning almost cutting the tail stinger off, better yet is using a good aftermarket muffler. With a proper venturie size and muffler you can also get the engines to run a nice higher RPM 4/2 cycle

Randy

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #28 on:** October 25, 2013, 02:49:38 AM »

Thanks Randy,
The heating up of the engine using a restrictive muffler hadn't occurred to me! Thanks for pointing it out. I checked the venturis and found that they were FP20 ones that I had put in. The FP40s in question came with R/C carbs (still in the boxes) and not C/L versions as I thought. Using APC 11x 4props (as per Dave Tribe?). The engines are really well mannered, the equal (maybe somewhat better) than the LA 46s that I also run.
I am still wondering if there is some of the FP20 BBTU tuned pipe behaviour. The runs are not as" tuned piped" as the FP20 BBTU, but I believe that there is a commonality in behaviour. There is a slight tendency to charge out of corners and the revs seem to hold pretty well throughout the run.
I understand where Brett is coming from, re the FP40. However he may well change his mind if he tried the set up described above. It could be that the FP40's evil reputation is not deserved. With the price of FP40s being peanuts, it is a very cheap way of getting a good stunt 40.

Regards,

Andrew.

Ward Van Duzer · « **Reply #29 on:** November 03, 2013, 02:08:06 PM »

I ran an Randy FP 40 for years on a mild retune and a stock Big Art tube muffler. No 4-2-4, just a solid pipe style run on a Bolly 11 X 4 tweaked to 11 X 3.75. I LOVED it! In fact one day at a contest a knowledgable flyer offered me his opinion to cure a bad run (bad needle on my part) by pulling the pipe out a half an inch. Yes, he was embarrassed when I showed him the muffler! FWIW this was an old version FP I think we rebuilt twice.

Ward-O

Oh yea, frozen engines... The oven!

Juan Valentin · « **Reply #30 on:** November 06, 2013, 05:14:25 PM »

Hello Dave
The heat gun has worked for me every time to get the OS.40FP unstuck and to get the piston out I remove the back plate and point the gun at the bottom of the piston to get the rod to move back to remove piston from the block after I got the cylinder out with heat by placing a piece of plastic tie wrap thru the port and turning the engine using a propeller. I like the .40FP I have one with the Tower Hobbies .40ABC cylinder and piston reworked by Randy Smith and I`m very happy the way it hauls my Profile Scratchbuilt P-51B mustang.
Juan

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #31 on:** November 07, 2013, 06:41:23 AM »

Juan that's a great looking airplane! Not familiar with the muffler but I like it. Most of the ones I have in this size are much larger. The best I ever had were the Big Art mufflers from way back I used on ST .46s. The general consensus among most here has been that heat works. That FP I got loose used several technics and was stuck worse than anything I ever saw. I think it was too new and tight to begin with which didn't help. You also made we wonder if Tower has parts that might put a box full of old FPs back in business.
Bending the topic a little, this morning I am still a little stunned as I acquired an engine that may require the best of these 'unsticking' tricks and my skill to do right. In my mind there are a few historic model engines in the antique age. Likely the #1 on everyone's list would have to be the original Brown Jr. used by Maxwell Bassett to fly and win the first Nats where a gas engine was used. To my knowledge Max still lives and still has that motor. I got the engine that to me is arguably the # 2 or 3. From the AMA and his daughter, I acquired Carl Goldbergs own 1936 Baby Cyclone and its original packaging, Arden coil and clockwork timer. This almost assuredly had to be the 'Zipper' engine. I don't know yet if its stuck but it is dirty so a careful shakedown will be in order. I never really considered myself a collector and still don't but my collectables grow. I'll post a photo once I get it cleaned up.

Dave

Juan Valentin · « **Reply #32 on:** November 07, 2013, 08:15:32 AM »

Hello Dave
The muffler is a Randy Smith product that I modified by adding A piece of curved tubing to the outlet. I took an airconditioning 90 degree elbow and bored it out to fit the muffler outlet,then I put some High heat silicone and slid the muffler into the tubing. I also drilled a tiny hole for a screw just in case. The plane is a scratchbuilt P-51B loosely based on the Twister.The fuse is 2 inches longer and the wing thicker. I made the ribs 1/8 inch thicker and covered the leading edge,used capstrips and added wing tips, Span is 52 for 565 Sq in.The control horns,motor pads and wheel hubs I made out of aluminum. The plane weights 47 ounces and is a dream to fly and landing are the best I had. It comes in touches down with no bounce,run on the mains before sttling the tail wheel down. I don`t know if Tower has any Tower.40 parts any more but I got my cylinder and piston from Randy.Here are a few pics.
Juan

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #33 on:** November 07, 2013, 08:43:42 AM »

Really, really nice.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2013, 06:59:56 PM »

As I promised here are some photos of Carl Goldberg's 1936 Baby Cyclone. It's in remarkable condition. I simply oiled it, put on my own period Flow Torque mahogany prop and it feels really super-ready to run. Notice the clockwork timer that still works, Arden coil, fuel tank and condenser.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #35 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:00:37 PM »

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #36 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:01:13 PM »

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #37 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:05:03 PM »

Also sent with the engine was an original copy of the use and care manual. Only the manual is for the later Super Cyclone. That's great as an item and I have a couple of those but it didn't come with this engine. None the less it too is quite a collectors thing.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #38 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:32:40 PM »

Very nice looking Baby Cyclone Dave. I don't think there are to many of those around anymore, at least that nice. If I remember right they are .36 displacement. That Super Cyclone manual is one of the very early ones. The ones I have are red and black and probably came out toward the end of production.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #39 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:34:08 PM »

Here I think you can see how bright and shiny the piston is. Guess now I'll get some kind of a display case or box made for the stuff.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #40 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:39:38 PM »

Hi Jim! Yes it seems pretty old. Wish it were dated but it isn't. By the way Mr. Kraft. I also just got an Atwood Super Champ I may need your help with. Somehow three head screws are too long(?) and I'm not sure the whole prop drive it there. Might ship it to you for love.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #41 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:42:50 PM »

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #42 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:49:12 PM »

Dave, I got these glassed in boxes at Hobby Lobby, (the craft store), and stained them to display the engines that I am not running. It has been a couple of years but I think they were less than $5.00 each. I do have few old Atwood Champion parts and a couple of engines. I would be glad to check it out for you if you want. They are great running old engines with lots of power.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #43 on:** November 14, 2013, 07:55:52 PM »

Thanks, thanks and thanks again! You should still have my email. Send your address and I'll get this rascal off to ya. I'll check out Hobby Lobby.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #44 on:** November 14, 2013, 08:12:16 PM »

Can't tell for sure but it looks like someone put in larger screws. The original three cyl. hold down screws are 1-1/4" long 6-32's. The prop drive cam is there, but it is missing the special extended 1/4" nut and prop washer. Those cams fit on a square on the shaft so can be put on wrong.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #45 on:** November 14, 2013, 08:31:23 PM »

Address sent.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #46 on:** November 14, 2013, 08:35:39 PM »

OK. If I can't find the correct part (maybe find a junker) then maybe a Fox extension shaft if the threads are right. I have a new one around here somewhere. Or maybe Tru Turn with make me one. I'll get the motor off in the morning.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #47 on:** November 14, 2013, 08:45:51 PM »

I haven't looked yet, but I think I may have one in my junk box. They are available from Woody Bartelt, but mine are free which is a lot cheaper.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #48 on:** November 14, 2013, 08:56:37 PM »

Quote from: Jim Kraft on November 14, 2013, 08:45:51 PM

I haven't looked yet, but I think I may have one in my junk box. They are available from Woody Bartelt, but mine are free which is a lot cheaper.

The heart of a lion!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #49 on:** November 15, 2013, 03:43:13 PM »

That frozen FP .40? One back flip and singing....sweet.

Author Topic: Frozen engines (Read 8566 times)

ChrisSarnowski