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Author Topic: fox 35 piston binds in liner.  (Read 3563 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

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fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« on: October 14, 2013, 07:11:16 PM »
My best fox 35,which had the wood stick in the bypass port and could do figure 8 after figure 8 with no burp, developed a sticking or binding in each revolution.  Today I removed the piston and liner and ascertained that the piston really is sticking in the liner and not some other problem.  A new piston and liner costs almost $62.00.  That's not worth it.  Is there anything I can do?  We did remove the baked on castor.  It still sticks.

could it be lapped?  Like with toothepaste?



 

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2013, 03:59:45 AM »
          Allen, I was never a fan of the stick in the bypass. I personally disliked it so I removed it. What can happen though is the stick can oblong the cylinder if not properly fit. This can also happen if the head bolts are not properly tightened. If the top of the case isn't true where the liner sits, once the head is tightened down the bind begins due to it twisting the liner. Certain year Fox .35's are much more prone to this problem then others. So without seeing your engine, I would remove the plug, individually loosen one head bolt one at a time and see if the bind goes away. I had a aluminum dowel that fit the cylinder it was as wide as the top of the case but it had a male end that went down into the case. I would glue a ring of sandpaper on the case and lap the top of the case so the sleeve would fit properly against it.

This doesn't mean that this is your problem as I've seen many of these bind in and around the exhaust port cutouts. In that situation I've lapped the piston in the sleeve upside down in that area using the bottom skirt of the piston to do the cutting while the top of the piston the crown is just slightly outside of the bottom of the liner. The next problem could be the wrist pin hole is not cross drilled through the piston properly which is causing the rod to jump on the crankpin. The only fix to that is to have the wristpin hole re drilled properly and a    oversized wrist pin installed. This now removes the circlip grooves and a wristpin has to be made with Teflon end pads. The secondary problem to this is the already too thin con rod which will depart eventually.

You could certainly be experiencing all of the above here, but I would check the head first. In the past, I've removed the head gasket and lapped the cylinder head onto the sleeve. This now requres the bottom of the cylinder head to be sometimes lapped flat if a lot of material is removed during the above. Otherwise the cylinder head touches the case prior to being tight on the liner itself. When reinstalling the head screws keep a prop on the engine and constantly check and rotate the crank to see if any binds are present. You might just find that one screw is responsible for this bind. In those situations. I just barely snug that one screw and either ca the screw to the head or I remove and install removeable Loc- Tite. Ken

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2013, 06:05:22 AM »
I'd replace the Fox with an OS35S and be done with that problem

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 09:10:40 AM »
When I bought my four Fox stunt 35s on sale in 1977, I immediately lapped the piston and cylinder.  I use DuPont white rubbing compound, which is water based, and therefore easy to clean out.  I took the head off, put a prop on and put a little rubbing compound around the junction of piston and cylinder, above the exhaust port.  Then I wiggled the piston up and down, moving it higher and higher.  When the compound turned grey, I washed it out and put in new.  I stopped about 1/8 inch from the top of the stroke.  Took the engine apart, washed and oiled it and put it back together.

I burned up one engine trying to run it on crankcase pressure.  Fox put in a new piston and cylinder, with note that they were tight.  The cylinder was distorted, and the engine was as you describe.  I lapped it and was able to get it to feel good.  That engine now runs fine. 

Online Brett Buck

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 10:05:47 AM »
          Allen, I was never a fan of the stick in the bypass. I personally disliked it so I removed it. What can happen though is the stick can oblong the cylinder if not properly fit.

   True. However without it, profile mounts are a non-starter.

    Brett

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2013, 10:14:54 AM »
It could be as simple as the muffler being tightened too much which is slightly warping the case. This can happen with either a strap on or bolt on muffler although the latest models with the full length mounting lugs are less prone to this. This phenomenon is not limited to foxes either as I have seen this happen to other brand engines as well. That's assuming that a muffler is being used. 8)
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2013, 01:25:01 PM »
with liner and piston out, it binds just the same.  I could believe that wood insert swelled and put pressure liner, oblonging it.

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 02:51:27 PM »
I saw somewhere that someone used a certain kind of toothpaste for lapping.  Does anyone know which kinds will work?  I would like to start with that.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 04:13:47 PM »
Allen,
The Fox 35 liner is very thin and can be distorted by a number of things that have already been described. For me the most frequent problems come from - muffler to tight; wrong size head bolts (with the stock head you can't normally use socket head bolts as the head diameter is just a little larger then the stock philips heads and distorts the liner they are tightened); hard mount pads - the fox mounts have a very slight angle to them that works well with wood mounts but if you use aluminum pads as you tighten down on the mount bolts it distorts the case and causes binding, I use 1/32 plywood shim under the engine to give some "crush" room, work for me).

In your case since it is binding outside the case first check for varnish if you have been using all castor fuel. This can be removed with a green Scotch Bright pad, be careful go slow and only were the varnish is, sometime you need to do the piston also. Just get the varnish off so the piston is free don't try to get to bare metal you will likely have no compression.

If varnish is not the problem and you want to lap it you can use white DuPont rubbing compound. Again, go slow and check the fit often, stop once it is free. Clean with hot water and detergent. As you assemble oil the parts with a light oil.

As for the stick in the bypass, you might consider, since you have the engine apart, cleaning the case and degreasing the bypass area then roughen it with some sand paper and putting JB Weld to fill about 1/2 the depth. This amounts to about 1/8 oz of JB Weld. When I did mine, I put it in the upper part of the bypass and laid the case on its side with the bypass facing down. The angle created by the mount lug lets the JBW flow out and cover the rest.

I think Bret has done it with the JBW also and might add some thoughts on his approach.

Best,          DennisT

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 07:15:02 AM »
haven't tried lapping yet. just cleaning.  Liner has a hole in one side near the bottom.  which side should that go to?  exhaust port side?

Offline Gene O'Keefe

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 08:01:17 AM »
On several other threads I remember reading that running some 50/50 castor/synthetic would free
up the binding - might be worth a try.

   Geno
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Offline John Craig

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 08:07:49 AM »
Look at the cylinder so that you can see both ports.  One is just slightly higher than the other, the exhaust port.  It opens first so that the spent gas can first be expelled to make room for a fresh charge. Some of the clinders have the hole others do not.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 01:33:35 PM »
...the fox mounts have a very slight angle to them that works well with wood mounts but if you use aluminum pads as you tighten down on the mount bolts it distorts the case and causes binding, I use 1/32 plywood shim under the engine to give some "crush" room, work for me)...
Good info, Dennis, I'll soon be mounting my first Fox, a 1958 Stunt .35, so I'm stockpiling tips as I go.

I always use Dural pads between the engine mounts and both sides of the beams on my profile planes. Do I understand correctly that a thin ply shim between the engine's mounting wing and the aluminum pad will keep the crankcase from distorting from the mount?

Thanks,
Rusty

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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 02:32:59 PM »
Back before a machinist friend trued the bottoms of my Fox 35 mounting lugs, I used 1/32 ply tapered to fit the bottom of the engine lugs.  If you know anyone who can true the lugs, I'd recommend getting it done. 

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 08:54:51 PM »
My brother did a little bit of ?lapping? witH Crest toothpaste after trying to take varnish off.  Then he put it back together.  The pinch is gone. Wow!

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 08:56:50 PM »
Rusty,
Yes, the plywood shim goes between the engine mount lug and the aluminum mount pad. What it does is get some material to crush down and keep the case from distorting when the mount bolts are tightened.

Best,        DennisT

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: fox 35 piston binds in liner.
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 09:18:46 PM »
When I built my one & only FoxBerg racer, I drilled and tapped holes in the aluminum pads and bolted them to the engine (no nuts under the aluminum). Then I nested the aluminum pads into epoxy glue and put sheet metal screws into the maple mounts. After that was hard, I drilled through the aluminum, epoxy and maple and put in T-nuts. Sounds like a lot of trouble, but not all that bad!  n~ Steve

Edit: On second thought, I think maybe I put the sheet metal screws in after the epoxy was hard. It was long ago, in a Galaxy far, far away...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 11:01:40 PM by Steve Helmick »
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