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Author Topic: First Experience with LA46  (Read 8381 times)

Offline Chris Fretz

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First Experience with LA46
« on: April 23, 2016, 08:53:29 AM »
I got to fly my Shoestring converted from RC for the first time. I must say I understand why everyone likes the LA46, so smooth an powerful. Sure does pull hard too. Although the Shoestring is pretty heavy I had a lot of fun with it. Thanks again for all the LA46 advice guys! 
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Online Gerald Arana

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2016, 02:51:04 PM »
Don't break that engine. Getting parts is harder than getting in and out of North Korea, alive. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ However, some of the parts of the LA .40 do fit the .46.  D>K

Yeah, But not the right ones!  ;D

Jerry

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2016, 03:22:47 PM »
Don't break that engine. Getting parts is harder than getting in and out of North Korea, alive. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ However, some of the parts of the LA .40 do fit the .46.  D>K
I saw what happened to yours, Ive never seen one do that. You should frame it an hang it on the wall.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 12:10:46 AM »
I saw what happened to yours, Ive never seen one do that. You should frame it an hang it on the wall.
Yeah, most of us have a wall of shame. I actually have a back room in the shop labeled, "The Bone Yard." Lots of sad carnage on display in there.
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Offline Carl Cisneros

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2016, 08:23:26 AM »
what plane did you convert it from?
manufacturer/kit

that plane looks like a keeper to me.

Carl
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2016, 09:53:23 AM »
what plane did you convert it from?
manufacturer/kit

that plane looks like a keeper to me.

Carl


Thanks!

I converted it from a Carl Goldberg G26 RC kit I picked up for $10.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 11:24:14 AM »

 Great video! Apparently you've set up the stock ailerons as flaps?
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 12:13:00 PM »
Great video! Apparently you've set up the stock ailerons as flaps?
I did, I thought why not.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 12:25:51 PM »
I did, I thought why not.

 Yep, looks like it worked out well. Since this was an R/C design, does it have a symmetrical airfoil?
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 01:00:46 PM »
Yep, looks like it worked out well. Since this was an R/C design, does it have a symmetrical airfoil?
It was a Semi-Symmetrical kit so that wasn't something I wanted so I made new ribs an it's symmetrical now. Looks like in the video the flaps are up a little when upside down.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 03:56:15 PM »
Hey Liner
Somehow I missed the video first time around. That's a great flight, you flew it well. I love the reflection of you on the wing as it passes over the top. Thanks for the entertainment, that was worth the watch. Now as soon as the inhabitants of my family room vacate, I'll watch again with sound so I can hear the engine run. I too am a recent LA.46 lover, I have an old brownish blue one on my Cardinal that really hauls it with authority and a sweet song.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 04:08:56 PM »
... Looks like in the video the flaps are up a little when upside down.
Yeah, you definitely need to get yourself a spotter that knows what he's looking at while you fly. Looking for outboard wing high or low during both normal level, and inverted level, so you know if it needs either a tip weight adjustment or a flap tweak. And watching for hinging the wings during sharp corners(like one side has too much or too little inertia). Looks to be a great plane though, and you seem very comfortable flying it, so maybe no serious trimming is needed.
Good work.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 05:39:27 PM »
Yeah, you definitely need to get yourself a spotter that knows what he's looking at while you fly. Looking for outboard wing high or low during both normal level, and inverted level, so you know if it needs either a tip weight adjustment or a flap tweak. And watching for hinging the wings during sharp corners(like one side has too much or too little inertia). Looks to be a great plane though, and you seem very comfortable flying it, so maybe no serious trimming is needed.
Good work.
Rusty
Yes trimming is something Im pretty clueless at. An don't have anyone that knows what to look for. After the first flight an not getting the tach to work right the motor was definitely running to slow.  But got the tach reading right an got it cranked up to somewhere around 9400-9600 that LA was awesome. Wing over felt good so I went for it.  Have been working on square loops.
I have a old Nobler the flap fell off in flight last year,  fixed all the old torn hinges. Now it flies nose up all the time. Going to have to cut into it an try to add a adjustable pushrod to try to fix that I guess.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 06:31:29 PM »
It was a Semi-Symmetrical kit so that wasn't something I wanted so I made new ribs an it's symmetrical now. Looks like in the video the flaps are up a little when upside down.

 Nice job! y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2016, 06:49:37 PM »
\And watching for hinging the wings during sharp corners(like one side has too much or too little inertia).

   Not too much inertia, just too much mass. What is happening is that changing the tipweight alters the lateral CG, that is, the position of the CG from left to right. If you have too much tipweight, the center of pressure of the airplane is inboard of the center of gravity, and the airplane rolls away from you (and points the lift vector to put some of the lift in the direction of the line tension, adding tension [temporarily]). Too little, and the CP is outboard of the CG, and the airplane rolls towards you (thus causing some fraction of the lift to be vectored against line tension).

      Note that because the lines provide almost all of the roll restoring force, this effect is not at all symmetrical. Having even a tiny bit too little tip weight is disproportionately worse than too much. Basic trim technique is to start out with more than you want and then work down.

    Brett

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2016, 07:21:36 PM »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2016, 07:23:44 PM »
An don't have anyone that knows what to look for.

You can pick up on everything you need flying by yourself -- but it's nicer if someone gives you pointers.

If you can go to contests -- go.  I can't answer for folks around you, but around here people are always happy to point out faults in someone's airplane.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2016, 08:00:37 PM »
Yes trimming is something Im pretty clueless at. An don't have anyone that knows what to look for. After the first flight an not getting the tach to work right the motor was definitely running to slow.  But got the tach reading right an got it cranked up to somewhere around 9400-9600 that LA was awesome. Wing over felt good so I went for it.  Have been working on square loops.
I have a old Nobler the flap fell off in flight last year,  fixed all the old torn hinges. Now it flies nose up all the time. Going to have to cut into it an try to add a adjustable pushrod to try to fix that I guess.
I see Brett posted while I was writing, but that clarifies something that I miss-stated, and so I'll go ahead and post my thoughts.
____________________________________

Well, clueless or not, you have more skills than I'd guessed(shame on me) when you first came on the scene.

The easiest trim item you can check from your pilot's vantage point is the amount of yaw toward the outside of the circle. This depends on two things, the first can be checked in the shop as follows:
Clamp the elevator and stabilizer with a couple of pieces of wood so that it's exactly neutral. Then hang the plane from the leadouts and see that the nose is pointed a couple of degrees down. If you have a straight un-swept Lead Edge, you can eyeball the wing against something you know is vertical in the background, like a vertical door frame or paneling joint on the wall. If it's not, you can adjust the leadout position until you have a slight nose-down attitude. Sliding them aft increases the nose down attitude, which translates in flight to outward yaw.

The second thing you can check by yourself depends on the LG being exactly parallel with each other. When you look at the wheels in level flight, what you want to see is the outboard wheel peeking out behind the inboard wheel. But not completely, the OB wheel should be partially eclipsed by the Inb wheel. This can be adjusted by engine offset(thrust angle). Engines are generally shimmed to the outboard direction by 1-3 degrees. For profile models, you can buy or make wedge shaped engine bearers that accomplish this. On built up full fuselage planes like your SS, I don't know how the experts do it, but I hog out the mounting holes on the engine so I can twist it slightly toward the OB side.

These are good things to address before the maiden flight. But adjusting leadout position affects a lot more than simple static yaw, and you'll need to learn to adjust this for proper line tension, both for level flight, and overhead flight. And you'll frequently have to compromise to find your personal favorite position.

It helps to have a buddy for in-flight details. You need to teach him/her to check for level wings. And it helps if it's a calm flying day. Have him watch you fly low steady flat laps. Imagine the lines as a straight line, continuing on through the wing, and exiting out the other side into space as a straight line. If the wing is level, the imaginary line will of course exit the outboard wing's tip. He must make a note as to whether the outboard wing is Tip-High or Tip-Low. Those are the terms my buddy and I use. Give him about 10 laps and then go inverted for the same check. If it's tip-high or low both ways, adjust your tip weight. If it's one way upright and the other way inverted, carefully bend the flap horn to equalize it. There is plenty more, but if you get those basics, you'll be flying a safe plane that won't come in and chase you.

There is a good thread on flight-trimming and one on bench-trimming here at Stunthangar. Maybe someone who knows can give you the link.

Hope that's some help.
Rusty
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 05:28:16 PM »
Uh-oh I got moved, whoops.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 06:27:28 PM »
I see Brett posted while I was writing, but that clarifies something that I miss-stated, and so I'll go ahead and post my thoughts.
____________________________________

Well, clueless or not, you have more skills than I'd guessed(shame on me) when you first came on the scene.

The easiest trim item you can check from your pilot's vantage point is the amount of yaw toward the outside of the circle. This depends on two things, the first can be checked in the shop as follows:
Clamp the elevator and stabilizer with a couple of pieces of wood so that it's exactly neutral. Then hang the plane from the leadouts and see that the nose is pointed a couple of degrees down. If you have a straight un-swept Lead Edge, you can eyeball the wing against something you know is vertical in the background, like a vertical door frame or paneling joint on the wall. If it's not, you can adjust the leadout position until you have a slight nose-down attitude. Sliding them aft increases the nose down attitude, which translates in flight to outward yaw.

Is this what you do when you have adjustable leadouts to get them set for the first time? Or is to check anything with or without adjustable leadouts?

Ohh an what skill do you mean?
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2016, 01:00:30 AM »
Is this what you do when you have adjustable leadouts to get them set for the first time? Or is to check anything with or without adjustable leadouts?

Ohh an what skill do you mean?
It's good to know whether you have adjustable LOs or not, but yes, use it to get your starting point with adjustable LOs. As for skill, the video shows you can capably handle a plane, and could certainly learn to fly Stunt.
DON'T PANIC!
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2016, 08:28:45 AM »
It's good to know whether you have adjustable LOs or not, but yes, use it to get your starting point with adjustable LOs. As for skill, the video shows you can capably handle a plane, and could certainly learn to fly Stunt.

Ohh no i meant do you use that system if they are not adjustable? Or can you only do it with adjustable LOs
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2016, 06:49:48 PM »
Well, S.O.P. is to adjust the CG to an appropriate starting point, then adjust the LO's so the plane hangs a bit nose down from the LO's, because these two are so closely related. I can't say that I have an angle that I can recommend, just definitely nose down. I found a cute little adjustable angle finder with a bubble level that can be set on the fuselage. Ideally, it would be set on the flat side of the fuselage at the CG, but it's actually so light...and the distance from the CG so little....that the angle isn't significantly changed by the device being just ahead of the LE. 

Back in the old days, apparently the smart guys would see from flying their new plane, that the LO's were in the wrong position and cut into the wingtip and move one or both LO guides until they had it right. Quite probably multiple times. The advent of (several) ways to make LO's adjustable was a major step in the right direction, right up there with low pitch props and better control systems. I am not certain who first invented adjustable LO's, but may well have been Al Rabe. And there are at least two basic variations that I know of.  :) Steve   
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2016, 08:07:41 PM »
Well, S.O.P. is to adjust the CG to an appropriate starting point, then adjust the LO's so the plane hangs a bit nose down from the LO's, because these two are so closely related. I can't say that I have an angle that I can recommend, just definitely nose down. I found a cute little adjustable angle finder with a bubble level that can be set on the fuselage. Ideally, it would be set on the flat side of the fuselage at the CG, but it's actually so light...and the distance from the CG so little....that the angle isn't significantly changed by the device being just ahead of the LE. 

Back in the old days, apparently the smart guys would see from flying their new plane, that the LO's were in the wrong position and cut into the wingtip and move one or both LO guides until they had it right. Quite probably multiple times. The advent of (several) ways to make LO's adjustable was a major step in the right direction, right up there with low pitch props and better control systems. I am not certain who first invented adjustable LO's, but may well have been Al Rabe. And there are at least two basic variations that I know of.  :) Steve   
Thanks for the good info Steve! Just what is S.O.P.?
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: First Experience with LA46
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2016, 08:37:03 PM »
Ohh no i meant do you use that system if they are not adjustable? Or can you only do it with adjustable LOs
Hey, Liner, sorry to leave you hanging Lol... that last post I made was 3:00 am on the opening day of the season's first contest, so I've been mostly preoccupied and recovering. Had lots of fun though.

S.O.P. means "Standard Operating Procedure."

On a converted RC plane like this one, you might have some added challenges. I just eyeball it and don't know enough to tell you a specific angle. But try doing as I suggested, hanging from the leadouts with the elevator clamped in the neutral position, and I'll bet it yaws out(nose down) a couple of degrees. Any noticeable angle is probably okay if you don't have adjustable LOs. Zero angle would be a concern to me, but fly it first and look at the wheels like I said earlier. If the outboard wheel can be seen peeking out from behind the inboard wheel, leave it alone. If you see the opposite, or have a negative hanging angle(nose high), and if it gets scary loose lines while doing loops and 8s, then consider cutting into the wing and moving them aft. That can open up a can of worms if the rib cutouts interfere with that plan. You don't want your LOs sawing your ribs in half while you fly.

Please weigh my input as you would from any non-expert who has some experience. And if you like the way it flies, leave it alone.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com


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