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Author Topic: timing  (Read 1452 times)

Offline rustler

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timing
« on: July 24, 2007, 01:53:36 PM »
Rather than get lost in Bob and Lou's Fox 40 posts, -

Timing. I agree with Lou, the baffle ST C35 is considered more stunt friendly than the flat top. Engines with a large timing lead are considered to have "run away" characteristics. To tame such motors and bring them into 4/2 mode, we reduce the timing lead. So where does that leave the flat top ST's, which have zero timing lead? According to received wisdom they should be the best stunt motors.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Jerry Bohn

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Re: timing
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2007, 08:43:49 PM »
Rustler, If that is your real name,(kidding, don't really care).
Could you please tell us engine hackers (engine guru wanna be's) what timing lead is?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 05:58:41 AM by Jerry Bohn »
Jerry Bohn

Offline rustler

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Re: timing
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2007, 03:47:44 PM »
Rustler originated due to the T/R team I fly in, (although it's many years since we did any). Derived from Ian RUSsell and Greg SadLER, with a T thrown in for luck.
I like it so much that when I diverged from the original Merco Co. I now do engines under the name Rustler, or Rustler-Merco for stunt engines.

Timing lead is as described by George Aldrich, and is the No. of degrees shaft rotation the exhaust opens before the transfer(bypass). Less degrees, say less than about 12, = good 4/2 break. Over this, as on many racing and R/C engines, particularly modern ones, e.g. up to 20, = run away tendencies. This prompted my thoughts on the flat top ST's. They are racing engines, but have zero lead. I guess the simple answer is to run a flat top ST and check it out. Dave Day gets very good runs with his flat top ST C35 in his Box Car Chief, but I have not noticed any strong 4/2 characteristic.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Jerry Bohn

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Re: timing
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2007, 06:40:41 PM »
Ian, Thanks for taking the time to explain timing lead. Good thing to know if one is an engine tinkerer.
Noticed Eric Rule dropped your Rustler .40 Metamorph. It was on my list of engine I gotta get someday. Are they still obtainable directly from you?
Jerry Bohn

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: timing
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2007, 07:25:53 PM »
Am I correct in thinking that timing lead is what is often callled 'blowdown'?

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: timing
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 01:31:23 PM »
Jim,

To your reply #4 - No. GMA hisself took me to task about that many moons ago: Blowdown per George, is the total difference between (sleeve) port open durations. Port "lead" - as Sir Ian refers to it, is the delay shaft angle time between, e.g., EX Opens and BYP Opens (piston coming down) and in most engines, is the same as the delay between their closing (piston going up.) (Don't ask about the exceptions to symmetrical timing...) (Please!)

To Rustler, your reply #2: I have a C.35 flat top or two. It never occurred to me to reduce total port duration! (I.e., drop the cylinder for more stuntable timing.) I may just measure things and run a few calculations to see what that looks like... Of course, if it takes much lowering of the sleeve in the case, it might introduce sub-piston porting - not good with a muffler on, and, in much of the world, even over here, running without a muffler is not on .
\BEST\LOU

Offline rustler

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Re: timing
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 02:56:14 PM »

Noticed Eric Rule dropped your Rustler .40 Metamorph. It was on my list of engine I gotta get someday. Are they still obtainable directly from you?
[/quote]

Jerry - Whut? He did? He never told me! Definitely still available from me, £95 inc. "International Signed For" airpost. Also 51, old type 61, and new 61, and watch this space. ???
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Jerry Bohn

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Re: timing
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 05:10:54 PM »
It's not listed on Erick's RMS  web site. Only lists Merco .61BB/ABC and Merco .61 Metamorf.
Jerry Bohn

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: timing
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 07:39:12 PM »
I was under the impression that blowdown was the difference between the exhaust open period and the bypass port open period. Leastways, that seems to be the convention around these here parts. The OS 40's I doctor are set for 140 degrees of exhaust open and 126 degrees of bypass open for a blowdown period of 14 degrees.  That means the exhaust opens at 110  after TDC and the bypass opens at 117 after TDC, 7 degrees of piston travel later.
Don

Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: timing
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 09:20:46 PM »
  I think that basically we are talking about the same thing..  Difference in degrees between exhaust opening and intake port opening.  The Lead timing is only on the opening end difference in degrees from exhaust opening til intake port opening,  where as Blowdown  is the total as don explains above.  Thus,  Lead timing should be one half the total blowdown timing. 

  That is if I am reading this correctly.  From what I understand about it is ,  that there IS a sweet spot for different engines and that falls into a range of operational acceptability--- ie --  Zero lead time  or zero blowdown is not good.  Conversly  20 degrees blowdown (or 10 degrees lead timing also is not good.  But somewhere   inbetween is good, and the exact spot for any reasonable engine is teriffic--- say  14 to 18 degrees blow down (or 7 to 9 degrees lead timing.

  Bigiron  (I always used lead timing when working on my combat engines)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 06:38:56 PM by Marvin Denny »
marvin Denny  AMA  499

Offline phil c

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Re: timing
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2007, 06:57:46 AM »
I was always intrigued that Garafoli got away with producing so many of the 35's with zero difference in the timing of the exhaust and boost ports.  They ran just fine that way, although they had a tendency to really backfire hard when starting.  One common mod for combat was to raise the exhaust port height.  You could get more power, but at the expense of overall general handling and starting.  From what I read, the theory was that when the ports opened some of the exhaust would go into the bypass and then come back out as the charge in the crankcase started scavenging the cylinder.  Also, the cylinder configuration was patented.  If you look really close the bypass ports have two angles cut into the sleeve at the top of the port.  The little angle in the edge of the port makes the airflow through the port stick to the sleeve and curve around and up towards the head with no baffle on the piston.  It looks like a pretty tricky variant of Scheurle porting, but with a much simpler crankcase casting.
phil Cartier


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