Author Topic: Difficult time starting engines today??????????????????????????? (Read 2693 times)

frank mccune · « **on:** October 14, 2018, 04:28:17 PM »

Hello All:

Four of us went flying today and all of us had a very difficult time starting our engines. Our engines were all one flip starters until today.

Our batteries were charged, fresh fuel etc. I had to resort to an electric starter for my HP .40 Gold Cup. The .25 LA that is usually perfect would not also start.
even the ST .51 was silent. Perhaps it was the weather. The temperature was 50 deg. F and the humidity was very high. We got my engine started by giving it a blast of ether. A couple of days ago, 77 degrees F and 55%, humidity and all was well! The engines would not give a bump when pulled through. A sure sign that they are ready to fire. Not today!

Any thoughts/comments regarding this problem?

Tia,

Frank McCune

Brett Buck · « **Reply #1 on:** October 14, 2018, 04:57:58 PM »

Quote from: frank mccune on October 14, 2018, 04:28:17 PM

The temperature was 50 deg. F and the humidity was very high.

I have a sure-fire solution to this problem, I watch other people fly until it is at least 60! I have no interest in sticking my hand on a razor-sharp propellor with a big-boy piped 61 with numb fingers.

Naptha/lighter fluid is the usual solution, back when I was flying in very cold conditions (below 30 - but that was a long time ago). Otherwise, it needs much more choking to get an acceptable mixture than it does even 10-15 degrees warmer.

Brett

frank mccune · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2018, 05:23:40 PM »

Hi Brett:

Thanks for the prompt reply.

We tried many combinations of prime, choke etc. Just could not find the correct amount. The lighter fluid will be in my flight box for the next outing.

I have flown Cox 1/2 A planes in -25 degrees F with no starting problems. In the Winter, I flew my Fox .36, circa 1972, in 0 degree F weather on a mix of Klotz and alky. No niro or castor. Never had a problem starting the Fox. Holding on to a running engine when it is cold is another story. Did not use gloves as they were too bulky! Oh to be young again. Lol

Be well,

Frank

Brett Buck · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2018, 05:26:33 PM »

Quote from: frank mccune on October 14, 2018, 05:23:40 PM

Hi Brett:

Thanks for the prompt reply.

We tried many combinations of prime, choke etc. Just could not find the correct amount. The lighter fluid will be in my flight box for the next outing.

I have flown Cox 1/2 A planes in -25 degrees F with no starting problems. In the Winter, I flew my Fox .36, circa 1972, in 0 degree F weather on a mix of Klotz and alky. No niro or castor. Never had a problem starting the Fox. Holding on to a running engine when it is cold is another story. Did not use gloves as they were too bulky! Oh to be young again. Lol

I used to do stuff like that, too, 35+years of California summers and greatly reduced motivation have tempered my enthusiasm for such endeavors.

Brett

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2018, 07:12:16 PM »

Quote from: frank mccune on October 14, 2018, 05:23:40 PM

Hi Brett:

Thanks for the prompt reply.

We tried many combinations of prime, choke etc. Just could not find the correct amount. The lighter fluid will be in my flight box for the next outing.

I have flown Cox 1/2 A planes in -25 degrees F with no starting problems. In the Winter, I flew my Fox .36, circa 1972, in 0 degree F weather on a mix of Klotz and alky. No niro or castor. Never had a problem starting the Fox. Holding on to a running engine when it is cold is another story. Did not use gloves as they were too bulky! Oh to be young again. Lol

Be well,

Frank

Shirley

you don't mean MINUS 25 degrees F? Even in the late 1950's, I wouldn't have gone outside in minus 25F, much less attempted to fly a model (maybe a glider?) powered by an engine, most especially a 1/2a. I had low regard for 1/2a's even then, and proud of it!

Steve

frank mccune · « **Reply #5 on:** October 15, 2018, 04:28:18 PM »

Hi All:

Today, to of the four people who had starting problems yesterday showed up to fly with the same conditions as yesterday. Today however, the engines started perfectly. Why the difference? Beats me!!!!! Perhaps it is one of those things that are unexplainable. Lol

Cheers,

Frank McCune

RandySmith · « **Reply #6 on:** October 15, 2018, 09:42:59 PM »

Frank
The trick of taking lighter fluid works, ( two to 3 drops in the intake help a lot) and also keep your fuel WARM over night when its cold, then keep it in the car when flying, if using a ni starter keep it in your pocket, it will keep the battery warm so it does not loose power

LIGHTER FLUID
Warmer FUEL
Keep battery warm

Randy

Dave Hull · « **Reply #7 on:** October 15, 2018, 11:09:44 PM »

Here's one method for starting your engine when it is -25 degrees out. Them Canadians is real men.... They do what they hafta to get it done.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=starting+a+caterpiller+diesel+in+the+snow+fire&&view=detail&mid=EE6B784F52C41636C7B9EE6B784F52C41636C7B9&&FORM=VRDGAR

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2018, 07:15:20 AM »

I don't know about negative temperatures, but in teens F Cox 1/2a start fine. Keeping them running in the air takes a little trick. I wind some yarn into the head fins. The airspeed cools the engine too much and it shuts off otherwise.

It has been a few years since I flew in this kind of cold, but a beautiful winter day may happen again.

Phil

dale gleason · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2018, 12:09:28 PM »

Referring to Charles Boyle and O'Doul's, I find there is a temp/dew point condition at which the fuel doesn't atomize. Venturi- choking fills the case with raw fuel, but, it doesn't atomize (vapourize?) and if the glow element is inspected, it may well be discovered to be dry as a gourd.

Rarely is it totally flooded, in that case, the circumstance must be addressed, of course...

Don Hutchinson uses a plastic nose- spray- squeeze bottle with fuel with which exhaust priming can be accomplished. Spray in a vapour, not raw liquid. Then back flip it...trying to avoid getting whacked on a cold day.

A caution...take care when spraying the flammable mist into the exhaust with a red-hot dry glow plug in there. Maybe remove the battery first.

FWIW,
dg

Edit: Don H also utilizes a skull and crossbones, and a POISON label prominently displayed on the plastic squeeze bottle, considering it a must!

frank mccune · « **Reply #10 on:** October 16, 2018, 02:27:16 PM »

Hi Dale and others who replied.

I think that Dale was totally correct in his diagnosis! I noticed that the engines were flooded in each case. The humidity was VERY high when we were having problems. As I think of it more, the second day when we had engines that were easy to start, the humidity had been cleared out by a gentle breeze. A cold front had arrived. I am now convinced it was indeed caused by very high humidity!

Thanks for taking the time and effort to reply!

Be well,

Frank McCune

bobsrc · « **Reply #11 on:** October 17, 2018, 11:22:00 AM »

The basic cause for hard starting in cold weather is the fact that alcohol doesn't vaporize as readily in the cold as some fuels. The secret to starting is to introduce some easily vaporizing flammable liquid like lighter fluid or gasoline to the prime to get the fire lit then the heat of combustion and the rapid airflow through the venturi will help make a flammable mixture in the combustion chamber.

Bootlegger · « **Reply #12 on:** October 17, 2018, 01:22:33 PM »

Dale Gleason, would you send me a P/M?? Thanks Gil

Paul Smith · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2018, 07:49:19 PM »

Along with the other correct theories, batteries lose their power in cold weather.
If you use a power panel with a rheostat, hook it up to a plug and make sure it's dialed up to make a strong glow.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #14 on:** October 17, 2018, 09:22:25 PM »

I never really thought about it before, but the flash point (the temperature at which something can form a flammable vapor) of methanol is 51 degrees F. Below that, you can't count on it just making a flammable vapor mix with no external assistance (like mechanically creating a vapor). Naptha (lighter fluid) has a flash point of -7 degrees, depending on what type we are talking about.

Science is true!

Brett

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2018, 02:39:44 PM »

Frank,
I think Paul had a very good suggestion about the power panel for cold weather starting. The lighter fluid also helps. The very first thing is to keep the NiCad cell warm and fully charged. Another option is to get the boost cell that allows using C or D alkaline cells, these are 1.5 volts and would give a little more kick then the 1.2 volts from the NiCads. When I was a kid we used 2 volt wet cells, some plugs could take it. One other thing is to check that the plug is tight. I have had this happen even on warm Florida days and had starting problems. Seems the copper gasket on the Enya plug keeps compressing and about every few weeks I need to give it a little snug up.

Best, DennisT

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2018, 02:58:13 PM »

Cold has never been a problem, normally it's all about good, strong glow. And correct priming of course.
I'm more worried in hot weather. Allways keep model nose & engine cool with a protecting wet rug.
When engine heats up in sun, everything volatile inside it expands and pushes oxygen away. That's when problems start. L

Brett Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2018, 03:36:33 PM »

Quote from: Lauri Malila on October 19, 2018, 02:58:13 PM

Cold has never been a problem, normally it's all about good, strong glow. And correct priming of course.
I'm more worried in hot weather. Allways keep model nose & engine cool with a protecting wet rug.
When engine heats up in sun, everything volatile inside it expands and pushes oxygen away. That's when problems start. L

That's a matter of technique, we have no problem starting engines in 108 degrees after sitting in the sun all afternoon, or the back of a car, or immediately after a run. Probably over-choking it.

Brett

Gary Dowler · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2018, 09:09:46 PM »

Cant say that I understand why this happens either, why they work one day and not another. I had a day this summer where I went out to fly. Proven engine that normally started very well. Not this day. Fought with that thing for a long time, eventually gave up on it. Weather was great, mid 70's, low humidity, etc. Never got it to burp. Went back the next day, same everything. Same fuel, engine, glow plug, etc. Weather was even almost identical. Same engine with the same fuel and same glow plug now was running 2 seconds after the starter touched it.

It can be a mystery at times. Im sure there was an explanation somewhere, something quantifiable was different, but I was never able to deduce what that difference was.

Gary

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2018, 11:22:23 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on October 19, 2018, 03:36:33 PM

That's a matter of technique, we have no problem starting engines in 108 degrees after sitting in the sun all afternoon, or the back of a car, or immediately after a run. Probably over-choking it.

Brett

That's the problem with big engines; too much inside volume & area to absorb fuel before choke reaches combustion chamber.
It never hurts to keep places cool, it's also good for needle setting.
But yes, you need much less choke to a warm engine. L

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #20 on:** November 01, 2018, 08:38:45 AM »

Gary,
One thing that I saw in another thread that might apply if you use a starter and a power panel for the glow driver, the starter can pull all the power from the battery leaving a weak glow. If it was a little over on the prime it could quench the plug just enough to prevent firing. The driver battery needs a good charge or use a separate glow driver with the starter. Other option that has worked in this situation is to simply hand flip, without the starter load the plug is hot enough to fire it off.

Best, DennisT

Gary Dowler · « **Reply #21 on:** November 14, 2018, 04:52:24 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on November 01, 2018, 08:38:45 AM

Gary,
One thing that I saw in another thread that might apply if you use a starter and a power panel for the glow driver, the starter can pull all the power from the battery leaving a weak glow. If it was a little over on the prime it could quench the plug just enough to prevent firing. The driver battery needs a good charge or use a separate glow driver with the starter. Other option that has worked in this situation is to simply hand flip, without the starter load the plug is hot enough to fire it off.

Best, DennisT

Good thoughts, Dennis. If I recall right, I did try to start it by hand as well. But you are right in that Im sure I was using the starter and glow off the same power source. These days I am using a stand alone glow starter and it seems to be a more reliable process. At my first opportunity I am going to try an experiment. Im going to put a glow plug in the cord off the panel, observe its glow, then turn over an engine with the starter motor and see if there is any discernible difference in glow intensity.

Gary

frank mccune · « **Reply #22 on:** November 15, 2018, 09:53:28 AM »

Hello All:

After further tinkering with my engine starting problems I made some "discoveries" that may explain some of the problems.

When the starter is used in conjunction with the glow driver on the panel, the voltage drop is so severe that the plug is receiving an insignificant amount of voltage to light the plug. However, when the glow driver is used, the amount of voltage is reduced very little. It too is plugged into the power panel. The plug is still hot enough to start the engine. Remedy, use the glow driver in the future or a stand alone glow plug battery. I will do additional tests to determine the amount of voltage/current drain caused by the starter. Perhaps a larger battery with more AH is a cure?

Thanks for all of the replies.

Frank McCune

bob whitney · « **Reply #23 on:** November 15, 2018, 12:16:07 PM »

or better yet use the power panel so u can adjust the heat of the plug, and get a 12 or 14 volt batt used in an E ship attach it to the starter and it makes it portable

the best of two worlds

Brett Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2018, 12:45:14 PM »

Quote from: frank mccune on November 15, 2018, 09:53:28 AM

Hello All:

After further tinkering with my engine starting problems I made some "discoveries" that may explain some of the problems.

When the starter is used in conjunction with the glow driver on the panel, the voltage drop is so severe that the plug is receiving an insignificant amount of voltage to light the plug. However, when the glow driver is used, the amount of voltage is reduced very little. It too is plugged into the power panel. The plug is still hot enough to start the engine. Remedy, use the glow driver in the future or a stand alone glow plug battery. I will do additional tests to determine the amount of voltage/current drain caused by the starter. Perhaps a larger battery with more AH is a cure?

You probably have a bad connection or inadequate wiring to the battery, effectively increasing the series resistance. I note that you are looking for McDaniel starter batteries, that is a much better solution that screwing around with power panels and starters.

Brett