Author Topic: Curious Developments (Read 2797 times)

ChrisSarnowski · « **on:** May 12, 2010, 08:16:13 PM »

Was looking at the Fox Manufacturing web site today and Fox is offering a .50 size gas ignition engine.

So I googled it some more and found some reference to its ignition module RCEXL.

Googled that and found that Magnum is coming out with a gas ignition version of the .52 XLS.

Weird!

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #1 on:** May 13, 2010, 12:14:26 PM »

I think we will see more of these "gassers" coming out. New tech. in ign. systems make them viable. Fuel is getting to costly. Although, I noticed Fox also has a new super stunt glow plug.

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2010, 02:36:22 PM »

Hello,
Can't see why this is a curious developement. Petrol engines are way more reliable and flexible than a glow engine. Once the ignition is modernized and minaturised, I can see no earthly reason why anyone would fly glow power. Engine manufacturers are well aware of this and that is why petrol engine sizes are reducing all the time.
Mind you some of us have been using petrol engine power for our model planes since the 1940's or even earlier. Its just that we knew a good thing when we see one, the others are just catching up!

Regards,

Andrew.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2010, 03:51:56 PM »

Personally, I'd rather go electric. But hey, different strokes....

Don Hutchinson AMA5402 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2010, 04:13:01 PM »

Would the Magnum 52 be legal for OTS?? Is it simply a glow engine with a spark ignition system added?? Not even points, I think they use either magnetic induction or optical to set the timing. The OTS rules specify "glow engines converted to spark will not be allowed". The Philly lawyer would say the engine came out of the factory with the spark system on it so it wasn't "converted"!
Don

john e. holliday · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2010, 08:14:18 AM »

But, it didn't exist in the late 40's or early 50's.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2010, 12:21:31 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on May 16, 2010, 08:14:18 AM

But, it didn't exist in the late 40's or early 50's.

Here we go again, I fear...

Quote

8.0 Spark Ignition Engine Bonus. A bonus of 10 points shall be awarded for the use of an operating spark ignition
engine.
8.1 Glow Engines converted to ignition may not be used. Ignition engines must either have been manufactured
during the Old Time Stunt era or be a reproduction engine that has been approved by the Society of Antique
Modelers (SAM)
8.2 Diesel Engine Bonus. A bonus of 5 points shall be awarded for use of an operating diesel engine.

   (Emphasis added)

   I think the passage in bold covers this question - current manufacture ignition engines are not allow unless SAM approved. It sure wasn't manufactured in the era. I don't know if it's SAM approved.

   Brett

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2010, 04:00:39 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 16, 2010, 12:21:31 PM

Here we go again, I fear...


   (Emphasis added)

   I think the passage in bold covers this question - current manufacture ignition engines are not allow unless SAM approved. It sure wasn't manufactured in the era. I don't know if it's SAM approved.

   Brett

My reading of this section is that non-SAM ignition engines are not allowed to receive the 10 point ignition bonus or to enter special OTS events for ignition-only. They can be used in OTS without bonus. I believe that any AMA legal engine can be used in OTS, including electrics. It would be helpful for Keith or Jim to speak to this issue.

Aside from OTS, this raises the interesting question of converting our IC engines to ignition in case of severe fuel shortage. Does anyone know if this might be possible? Are the Fox and Magnum engines standard valveless 2-stroke internal configuration (probably with timing and compression changes) with new bells and whistles on the outside?

RandySmith · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2010, 04:22:05 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on May 16, 2010, 08:14:18 AM

But, it didn't exist in the late 40's or early 50's.

neither did the hi tech ignition system used now

Brett Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2010, 05:47:45 PM »

Quote from: Kim Mortimore on May 16, 2010, 04:00:39 PM

My reading of this section is that non-SAM ignition engines are not allowed to receive the 10 point ignition bonus or to enter special OTS events for ignition-only. They can be used in OTS without bonus. I believe that any AMA legal engine can be used in OTS, including electrics. It would be helpful for Keith or Jim to speak to this issue.

I don't know, may not be used seems pretty definitive. De Hill wrote the passage in question, I believe.

Brett

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2010, 06:07:52 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 16, 2010, 05:47:45 PM

I don't know, may not be used seems pretty definitive. De Hill wrote the passage in question, I believe.

Brett

That would mean that electrics are allowed but not non-SAM sparkies. That would be curious for sure. I wonder what Keith and Jim (Thomerson) make of this rule. Jim Craft, you're a major contributor to sparky OTS. Whaddya think?

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2010, 07:36:48 PM »

OK; Here is my understanding on the rules. In order to get the ignition bonus in old time stunt, the engine has to be a SAM approved engine for their spark ignition rules, which include using points to charge and discharge the coil. Solid state circuits may be used in place of a capacitor, and using the points to trigger the circuit. These are all spark motors from the 30,s to the 50,s and some approved reproduction engines. As far as I know, there is no reason any approved engine with spark ign. that does not fall within the above criteria, can not be used in old time stunt, or PA, for that matter. It just does not get the ign. bonus.

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2010, 01:56:52 PM »

Brett,

You were saying something recently about rules that require interpretation.........

Brett Buck · « **Reply #13 on:** May 17, 2010, 02:19:49 PM »

Quote from: Kim Mortimore on May 17, 2010, 01:56:52 PM

You were saying something recently about rules that require interpretation.........

Well, in this case it seems eminently clear, to me. There's not a separate "ignition stunt OTS" event in the rules, there is only "OTS" and it says *may not be used*. The exceptions are also quite clear - "period" engines and SAM-approved conversions, which appears to cover the possibility of new production ignition engines. That's the way I read it, anyway.

Whether that's what anybody might prefer it to be is a separate matter. I can at least see removing the bonus points for non-period engines but I can't see why we need to ban them entirely as long as we are allowing absolutely anything else. Just like any OTS rules issue I am sure there are people across the country ready to start arguing about it.

Brett

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #14 on:** May 17, 2010, 03:55:30 PM »

I agree Brett; The rules seem simple enough to me also. For bonus points, it must be an old SAM approved sparky. But if you want to run one of the new sparkers, thats OK, you just don't get the points. One thing that is a little different between SAM rules and PAMPA rules. In SAM, you can run either gasoline, or methanol for fuel. But if you run methanol, you can not run any nitro. As far as I know, you can run what ever nitro% in methanol that you want to in PAMPA ign. engines.

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2010, 04:17:48 PM »

Jim,
That's not what Brett is saying. He is saying that there are ignition engines which cannot be used at all.

Kim Mortimore · « **Reply #16 on:** May 17, 2010, 04:52:10 PM »

The rule is poorly worded. If it were reworded to say:

"8.1 Glow Engines converted to ignition may not receive bonus points....."

then the rule would conform to the way things are actually done, according to Jim's description.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #17 on:** May 17, 2010, 05:23:52 PM »

Oh! That happened to me one other time. LOL Brett, you are right in the way the rules are written. I think where some of the confusion comes in, is that there is an ignition only Old Time Stunt event at VSC, in which only period sparkers can be used for sure. On the other hand, you can also fly period correct sparkers in the regular Old Time Stunt event, and get the 10 point bonus. And, as Kim has said, you can also fly electric in Old Time Stunt, but of course no extra points. But, I cannot see any reason ( except for the way the rule is written ) that you could not fly a modern ignition engine in Old Time Stunt. May be we need a tweak in the rules.

We need somebody bigger than me to clear this up. LOL

Interstingly, Saito started out with a 60 sparker back in the 70's. I do not think it is a SAM approved sparker though. They do have a list of approved sparkers on their web site.

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #18 on:** May 17, 2010, 05:42:55 PM »

In the 80's I bought several engines from Otto bernhart IE converted OS25,35 f engines. Same series as the beloved OS35S. I also bought his converted Merco 60 Bernhart special. Also I bought the Merrill Simplex a super Cyke and others including the Saito FI 60 that they only made one run of.. As I remember they were all at that time approved for SAM events. I believe that the main thrust of the argument, and don't hold me to it, was that it had to have points. not a magnet and sensor.Had reproduction Browns, Ohlsons, Hurleman single and twin and Bunch too. All could be used if you wanted to do so.
A Bernhart Merco 60 converted with that shiney new upper cylinder and blue crankcase and gold,polished brass, point assembly is a thing of joy forever.
dennis

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #19 on:** May 17, 2010, 06:08:38 PM »

Hey Dennis; You have got to quit that. I read your post and promptly drooled all over my self. LOL Great bunch of engines you have there. I almost bought one of the Saito 60 sparkers when they came out, but got the first of the OS 60 four strokes instead. It has been a great engine also, and I have many hours on it, and it still runs great. I could not afford both at the time. The Saito is a beauty though.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #20 on:** May 17, 2010, 09:02:19 PM »

Quote from: Kim Mortimore on May 17, 2010, 04:52:10 PM

The rule is poorly worded. If it were reworded to say:

"8.1 Glow Engines converted to ignition may not receive bonus points....."

then the rule would conform to the way things are actually done, according to Jim's description.

Agreed, if that is the intent it probably should be changed to say that. Until then I think I stick with the rule as written, and I can't see any ambiguity in "may not be used".

Brett

Author Topic: Curious Developments (Read 2797 times)

ChrisSarnowski