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Author Topic: Combustion Chamber Volume  (Read 1284 times)

Offline Howard Rush

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Combustion Chamber Volume
« on: May 03, 2010, 01:51:09 PM »
Does anybody have a clever method for measuring this?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:19:15 PM by Howard Rush »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Comustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 01:58:45 PM »
I recently asked this question on the metalworking group on USENET.

The normal way to do this for full-scale engines is to clamp a piece of clear acrylic onto the head, then drop oil from a burette into a hole in the acrylic until the chamber is full, then check to see how much volume you've used up.  This gets awkward with little engines, so here are the suggestions that I liked best from that thread:

  • Talk a diabetic friend out of a syringe & needle, and use it as your burette, with isopropyl alcohol as the working fluid.  The syringe will have very small graduations, the needle will be fine (so you can use a really small hole in the acrylic), and isopropyl alcohol is cheap and has very low surface tension.  Use the 99% stuff.
  • Same as above, but weigh the head before and after, then calculate
  • Drip wax into the chamber.  Either melt it out and determine volume, or weigh the head before and after.

Good luck.  That reminds me, I need to stop shaving or changing cloths for a couple of days, then drink lots of coffee and go into a pharmacy and see if I can talk them out of some needles...
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Comustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 02:42:27 PM »
This is what happens when we don't keep Howard busy. A Howard with too much time on his hands is a scary proposition.
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Online Jim Kraft

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Re: Comustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 06:10:09 PM »
Clarence Lee of RCM fame, once wrote years ago how he figured volume. If I remember right he used a syringe with oil. Been a long time ago that I read that. Might be able to find it in the RCM web site.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 06:22:40 PM »
Thanks, Tim and Jim.  Tim's method sounds better than what I was thinking.  I was hoping to do it without removing the head.  

Edtied to spell better.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:19:46 PM by Howard Rush »
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Offline Noel Corney

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 11:32:13 PM »
Here in Aus you can buy over the counter, If you know the Pharmacist he-she may give you one, not an expensive item, not concidered dangerous even for illicit drugs,not that I would know about that. Noel.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »
Thanks, Tim and Jim.  Tim's method sounds better than what I was thinking.  I was hoping to do it without removing the head.  

Edtied to spell better.


Howard

Just use a syringe and oil, if it is a lapped  ABC or AAC motor it will be easy to go thru the glo plug hole, and not have any leak thru a ring gap

Randy

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 03:44:59 PM »

 . . .  Just use a syringe and oil, if it is a lapped  ABC or AAC motor it will be easy to go thru the glo plug hole, and not have any leak thru a ring gap

Randy

My 1.0 syringe has a scale with major divisions of .1 cc and minor divisions of .01 cc. Doing some quick feasibility cipherin', that looks pretty decent. You probably have some similar calculations you have done, so these are sort of a "sense check" for you.

For  example: An LA 46 has a bore of 23.0 mm, stroke of 18.4 mm, and a volume of 7.64 cc. "Guessing" an arbitrary 10:1 compression ratio, the combustion chamber volume is .76 cc. Adding a .010" head shim gives us a new (Randy Smith method) volume of .87 cc, or a delta of .11 cc –  right on the edge of what the syringe will measure.

A practical feasibility test might be to do just that – measure the head volume with no shims, then a variety of shims, and see if the volume changes agree with your calculations as to what they should be. It is clear the measurement system  will not as robust as you would like, but maybe good enough for what you are trying to do. I'm sure you are not interested in the head shims, but we can use them as a way of testing our measurement accuracy.

You will post a follow up what you are trying to do, won’t you  :)

       Larry Fulwider

Offline tom hampshire

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 04:07:42 PM »
Larry - I tried this years ago, and couldn't get the syringe to meter accurately due to the plunger friction.  It wouldn't move, and then would come free, overshooting the mark.  Thin oil didn't help much.  So I went to filling the chamber to the plug threads, sighting the surface of the meniscus, and then using a fully emptied syringe to withdraw the oil.  Let the bubbles settle, and take the volume.  It wasn't that repeatable,.  Still needed test runs for good data.  Tom Hampshire

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 05:10:58 PM »
. . . I tried this years ago, and couldn't get the syringe to meter accurately due to the plunger friction.  It wouldn't move, and then would come free, overshooting the mark.  . . .

.\ . . .
  Tom Hampshire

Maybe we can get Jim Lee to make us some high-zoot 1.0 cc syringes  ;D

       Larry Fulwider

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 08:20:00 PM »
I have had  ZERO problems with plunger friction in new small syringes, I use the ones with steel needles and the only time I had one stick was when it was ..old. and the oil had swelled the neoprene plunger.
mineral oil will work OK, I guess you could also use water

Randy

Offline James Lee

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2010, 03:24:45 PM »
Larry
Put that order in now, there will be  'bit' of lead time   LL~ LL~

Howard
Put the piston at tdc and count the drops of oil ( I use MMO ) If I remember correctly an average 40 will have about 23  - 25 drops when its level with the hole for the glo plug....  FWIW
thanks
Jim 

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Combustion Chamber Volume
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2010, 11:36:10 PM »
I made my own "gadget" by using a long length (about a metre) of clear plastic tubing of around 1/16" ID and calibrated it by filling to 1 metre each time and pouring into a medicine glass until it reached 50cc. That gave me the number of metres of liquid to equal 50cc so from then on it was just maths (1mm = .0025cc for my tubing).

To use it, I'd fill it to some random length more than I'd guess would be needed to fill a combustion chamber and measure the amount of liquid (I use turps/kerosene) against a steel ruler. With a finger covering one end I then slowly allow it to drip into the combustion chamber until it's full. I like to do it close to the flyscreen on my windows so I can see a grid pattern from reflection off the surface until the reflection is flat, no meniscus. I then measure the remaining length of liquid and that tells me what length has been poured in which in turn gives me the volume.


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