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Author Topic: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane  (Read 2469 times)

Offline Chris Keller

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Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« on: April 13, 2009, 03:28:34 PM »
I saw the other post about getting a fox 35 to run and didn't want to hijack that post. My question is: what is the correct tank location for a standard stunt 35 on a profile plane? I have heard that regardless of where the fuel line comes out of the tank that the pickup in the tank should be about 1/8" higher than the centerline of the venturi. I have a 4 oz stunt tank , not uniflow, going to my fox 35 and would like some help in locating the tank. I'm playing with different locations, but just can't seem to get it right. I'm having problems getting a consistent 4-2 break in maneuvers. I'm running 10% nitro with 28% all castor fuel. 10-6 wood prop. I'm realeasing when the engine is just this side of 4 stroke. I have a problem with the engine cutting out (thankfully then starting again) when I go inverted. The engine is new, was broken in properly and runs great, but that magic configuration is elluding me. Any help would be appreciated.

Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2009, 08:10:47 PM »
The "cutting out" and restarting is an example of the (in)famous Fox "burp. The best cure for this is partially blocking the huge bypass port with a piece of wood. Dennis vander Kuur worked up some easily followed drawings for this problem. See:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=11452.0

These drawings and instructions should solve your problem.

(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2009, 08:44:14 PM »
You are doing everything right.  FWIW: Not all Foxes run like they are supposed to.  Of three I have, only one runs 4-2-4 reliably and it is a Larry Foster Fox (available from RSM).  At the least I would recommend a "stuffer" backplate, either the Fox one or Randy Smith.  This won't help the "burp" but it will make it run smoother. If you can run it without a muffler, try that.  The muffler may be causing  the engine to run hot.  This may be one reason you are having difficulty finding that elusive 4-2-4 run.  The burp - can be eliminated or enjoyed! 8)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 11:25:58 PM by Pete Cunha »
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2009, 09:39:49 PM »
If you are running the Fox plug that came with the engine, a really hot plug will help alot. If you can find a Thunderbolt R/C, or K&B 1L, it will generally help the burp. Even a Fox R/C plug will usually help, but the others will work better.
Jim Kraft

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2009, 10:18:59 PM »
I saw the other post about getting a fox 35 to run and didn't want to hijack that post. My question is: what is the correct tank location for a standard stunt 35 on a profile plane? I have heard that regardless of where the fuel line comes out of the tank that the pickup in the tank should be about 1/8" higher than the centerline of the venturi. I have a 4 oz stunt tank , not uniflow, going to my fox 35 and would like some help in locating the tank. I'm playing with different locations, but just can't seem to get it right. I'm having problems getting a consistent 4-2 break in maneuvers. I'm running 10% nitro with 28% all castor fuel. 10-6 wood prop. I'm realeasing when the engine is just this side of 4 stroke. I have a problem with the engine cutting out (thankfully then starting again) when I go inverted. The engine is new, was broken in properly and runs great, but that magic configuration is elluding me. Any help would be appreciated.

  Darn near everyone has this problem, although only about half of them will admit it.

     The "bypass stuffer" fixes this issue conclusively and is very easy to do. The other aftermarket parts change the way it runs but don't really affect the problem you have.

    Brett

Offline Clayton Smith

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 05:58:12 AM »
Use a uniflow tank with pick up and uniflow inline. Absolutely no leaks. On a profile place tank so internal pickup location is 3/8" to 1/4" above centerline of engine using glow plug as reference point.  Mount tank using bracket screws so it is adjustable.  No rubber bands and foam rubber!!

Proven to work the past 25 years.
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 08:13:13 AM »
Get a uniflow tank and mount it where the engine runs to suit you. H^^  If you are using a muffler, run muffler pressure.

Offline Chris Keller

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 05:13:00 PM »
Here is the real question, who can tell me why it "burps"?

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2009, 08:48:34 PM »
Here is the real question, who can tell me why it "burps"?

     Here is Frank Williams post on this topic (and the "inboard cylinder" topic) from SSW:
Leonard, Doug, Richard

I just love this .... everyone's kinda right I think... the boost port is the problem, ... and ... if you listen real close I think you find that, running rich, not all of the fuel/oil gets burnt and expelled on a given stroke and the inboard jug helps here.

I did the inboard/outboard experiment one day several years back, not that I wouldn't like to see someone else try it now also. I did it with the very worst of the profile engines .. the Fox 35. The rules are that the tank (a metal one.. not allowing for pickup dangle in the plastic) is mounted directly on the centerline of the engine. No bias high or low allowed.

With the jug outboard the engine died completely on a hard outside, with the jug inboard same result but on hard insides. I don't remember whether or not it completely died inboard, but I was certian that I hadn't fixed anything. At the same time we did the over/under fuel line needle swaps. No difference here.

At the insistance of Mike Denton I plugged the bypass port with a 5/16 wide piece of basswood in middle of port. Approx. 1/2 of volume removed. Mike was convinced that is was the velocity of the gasses in the bypass that was the problem. He was right. Result ... on a hard outside you hear maybe about one rev of misfire but no flameout. When pulling a 15-20 g manuever the mass of the gas mixture in the bypass is significant, and speeding the flow up is good.

The horsepower curves for the engine before and after were almost identical, actually if I recall, the power was actually up a tad at lower revs. An engine was setup for Fox Mfg. ( can't remember the guy's name ... help me here Dallas .. you know how I'm talking about) He reported back that reducing the bypass volume did indeed clean up the profile poopout problem (PPP).

The discussions through the years that "to get a profile to run correctly ... just bias the tank" is simply treating the symptoms. A single bypass engine (one big boost port) can perform well in a profile situation ... **if the velocities in the port are high enough**. At the same time a three port engine with the boost port plugged completely is probably best for that type of engine ... some three port engines probably run ok in profiles ... because the gas velocity happens to be high enough. I've always thought that in a given case the 51's ran better than the 40's ....the 60's ran be 51's and the 65's ran better than the 60's. The reason being that the increasing size of the cylinder kept reducing the bypass areas ... and therefore increasing the gas velocity. Maybe not for speed or pylon, but for stunt a smaller bypass is probably better.

To the inboard jug arrangement ... All engines are somewhat different, some better than others in the inverted mount, but the ST60 inverted always has ratty insides and clean outsides when mounted inverted. In one direction the loop g's are cleaning the cylinder in the other direction they are packing the stuff in (left over oil etc.) With an inboard cylinder the insides and outsides are both clean and you have 3 g's helping to mechanically scrub the cylinder of stuff on each stroke ... the engine runs cleaner.

Right now someone is saying, "my ST60 never had that problem". Sometimes it's pretty subtle but I believe its always there. Higher rpm can mask it some. From the outside of the circle you may not be able to hear the smoother performance of the inboard arrangement. Most who argue that there's no difference haven't spent any time flying a configuration of this type. Try it ...you'll like it.

Richard, after writing this, I'm ready for that rear intake front exhaust ROJett 65 now.

Later
Frank Williams

 




Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2009, 04:53:53 PM »
Chris,
The more general rule I've found is the uniflow vent end inside the tank will probably wind up from 1/4" to 5/16" above the center of the venturii. It is that vent height that the engine "sees" as the top of the fuel surface with uniflow venting. That's the level of vent air, whatever the amount of fuel in the tank. Here's another thought:

Brett,
Thanks for bringing Frank's comments to a new audience! I'd only add that treating the symptoms isn't always bad, IMHO. I know you've seen my recommended pre-flight tank height test routine somewhere: it's been in here at least a few times. The idea is that - particularly for Fox 35s over the many years of production - not all of them are equal. (Wasn't that from Orwell's 1984? The boss pig told the other pigs, "Some pigs is more equal..." Not that I consider the Fox Stunt 35 a pig, far from it. Considering the advances in technology that it does not make use of, it ain't all bad.)

The test before a first flight requires that the tank height be adjustable, of course. The process is to start the engine, rotate the wings to vertical - outboard tip down. Set needle fairly rich, so RPM changes can be heard - or better, tached - easily.

Hold the fuselage centerline dead level at all times, and rotate the wings to about 45° "cockpit up" (keep fuselage centerline horizontal). Check for an RPM change. Then rotate to the other 45° "cockpit down" (keeping fuselage centerline level.) Check RPM in this attitude. The tank is relatively low in the rolled position where RPM increases, and the richer, lower RPM  is when the tank is realtively high.

Repeat this a few times until you are sure you know which is the high (or low) side and shut off the engine. Safest way is nose straight down, outboard wing up. That puts the fuel pickup out of the fuel - always with a metal tank, and most often with a clunk tank. Adjust the tank to lower it from the high position; alternatively to raise it from the low position - it's the same intention.

Run another test as above. If there is no significant RPM difference at both banked positions, whatever the mysterious conditions inside the engine may be, they'll act much the same upright and inverted; insides and outsides. What you're doing is doing it until it's done, not by some arbitrary number which may work with one engine, but won't work with yours. There are enough dimension differences inside Fox 35s - and surprisingly even in "reasonably priced" CNC engines, that they won't all run exactly the same. (The newer engines are generally more alike, tho...)

Why does this procedure work? The rolled angles put simple weight - force of gravity - at something like the angle of the combination of centrifugal and gravity forces in flight  - only a MUCH bigger angle. We can't increase the load on the fuel from CF while we're standing still, but we can exaggerate the effect with the greater angle. That acts like raising or lowering the tank while the engine is running on a test bench, which is easy to understand will richen or lean the setting without touching the needle valve.

After this "wig-wag" test to set tank height, you are at least more sure that is close enough you won't likely flood or starve out in a first flight. Depending on the model's "rig" -whether it flies nose-up or -down, or with one wing high or low, you'll probably need to fine tinker the tank height a bit more...

Luck!
\BEST\LOU

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2009, 05:38:41 PM »

Brett,
Thanks for bringing Frank's comments to a new audience! I'd only add that treating the symptoms isn't always bad, IMHO. I know you've seen my recommended pre-flight tank height test routine somewhere: it's been in here at least a few times. The idea is that - particularly for Fox 35s over the many years of production - not all of them are equal. (Wasn't that from Orwell's 1984? The boss pig told the other pigs, "Some pigs is more equal..." Not that I consider the Fox Stunt 35 a pig, far from it. Considering the advances in technology that it does not make use of, it ain't all bad.)

   Oh, I agree they aren't all the same, but the bypass stuffer mod is a fix to the root cause of the issue he is having. You might get it OK  to some extent by monkeying with the tank/plug/fuel but the stuffer is the solution, then you can use any fuel/tank/plug you want within reason.
 
     Brett

Offline Ward Van Duzer

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 12:10:09 PM »
Just as a side note, Marv Denny commented that the earlier 6 bolt Foxes had smaller by-passes and he never recalled having a "burp" with any of those. These would be the ones without the angle brace cast directly under the crankshaft.

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2009, 12:44:57 PM »
Just as a side note, Marv Denny commented that the earlier 6 bolt Foxes had smaller by-passes and he never recalled having a "burp" with any of those. These would be the ones without the angle brace cast directly under the crankshaft.

   I noticed the same thing and mentioned it to George Aldrich on the old RCO forum. But he didn't think there was a problem in the first place, never happened to him and he never saw it - then said the burp was what it was supposed to do, and then offered several ways to fix it!  Also some very interesting magical thinking about tanks  in that thread, as I recall.

    Frank found the root cause, found the solution, this should no longer be an issue for anyone with 5 minutes and piece of spruce. Even if the engine doesn't seem to burp, the fix either doesn't hurt anything, or very slightly increases the power, so there's no downside to doing it.

    All the other issues are still there, of course, and I still think it's a terrible engine for a profile, but you can keep it running.

     Brett

Offline Chris Keller

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 08:32:02 PM »
Ok, I tried the mod with the piece of wood to the specs shown. The engine seemed to start easier and had what seemed to me better power. Good 2-4-2 break in wing overs and swift climbs / dives , good loops, went interted and the plane didn't just burp, it died. Twice. I'm still launching right when the engine is barely in 4 cycle. Should I be setting it a click or two richer? Any thoughts? I'm somewhat at a loss here.  HB~> HB~> HB~>

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2009, 09:02:31 PM »
It has been said many times in these forums that the Fox tank had to be above the needle valve. Usually this was in reference to a model using a uniflow tank. Without the uniflow feature putting the tank in line with the needle supposedly works just fine. One's education in the art of stunt models never ends so you will find that this theory is either valid or not. Let us know, another data point always helps.
Don

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2009, 10:05:18 AM »
One of the things I do not follow is the advice given here.  My Foxes and other engines, mounted profile, run best with the uniflow in line with the hole in the spraybar.  Why is this true for me but for no one else?  What have I done to deserve this? 

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Fox .35 and tank location on a a profile plane
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2009, 12:34:23 PM »
Jim,

The big Guy above the sky must be smiling on you...

Chris, (Yeah, Brett, treating symptoms again...)

I've found that when the symptoms are pretty well taped and medicated, launch setting should be a hair into 2-cycle. You know how the engine sounds near 2-cycle: chirps into 2- then burps into 4-, right? Try launching it with the "ratio" between chirps and burps being almost all chirps. Simple reasoning:

The prop unloads as the model rolls out and lifts off. Prop load is a factor in firing mode - at least for the Fox 35 (and apparently also in triggering the torque shift in piped engine stunters.) The prop faces a greater load at release, when there is no airflow from model speed coming at it. When I practiced a whole lot more, my Fox 35 stunters took just about 3/4 of the first lap to settle to a solid 4-cycle growl - which I had confidence was just below the break to 2-cycle. That older one-flat Fox needle valve made it a mite difficult to nail this launch setting. OS or ENYA NVAs are MUCH more progressive; ST NVAs are a bit fat in diameter, choke a bit too much intake area, for my liking.

As to the uniflow tank positioning being more critical - it sure is! The more uniform run through the whole flight is very welcome, however. This is most noticeable for profile (head out) Fox 35s, but it's still good to leave some vertical tweaking space in a head up or down full-body model.
\BEST\LOU


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