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Author Topic: 4-stroke question  (Read 2849 times)

Offline andreas johansson

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4-stroke question
« on: June 08, 2007, 11:56:56 AM »
Hi

I have begun to develop a real interest in 4-stroke engines. I plan to build either a Brodak Vector or a Brodak Legacy with a 4-stoke engine. How do you set up these engines? Naturally you cant set up the engine for a 4-2-4 break. Is the throttle locked in wide open position?

Andreas
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Offline proparc

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 12:12:53 PM »
rzambelli@moog.com is the 4 stroke forum. We have been contributing for years now. Bob can get you to just about anyone to answer ALL your questions. What's nice is that we can discuss controversial things related to 4 strokes without any crap or backlash. Really nice.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2007, 05:31:34 AM »
Bob Z is here at brodaks and not sure he has an internet connection.. Think your best bet for now would be going to the engines forum and searching for Saito.. Most of what we know about 4 strokes is probably there.

Also a couple threads on venturis are on the UHP site..

http://www.egpworld.com/forum/default.aspx

Again search for Saito and you will find a few hours reading

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 10:14:14 AM »
Andreas: I have been flying 4S motors for several years now, and really like
the way they perform. For the last 3 years I have used the OS 52 FS in my
60 oz. Saturn with an Eather 3 blade (blue) 13 x 4 prop that has been cut
down to 11.75" and repitched out to 6 at the tips by the pitchman: Brad Walker.
This is a great combo and I have done my best flying with this setup.

I have also used the Saito 40, 56, and 72 motors. For 60 size or larger ships
I actually preferred the 56 over the 72. It seemed to me to be an easier to engine to find
the 'sweet spot'. With the 56 I used a Bolly 13 x 6 2 blade prop. I've also had
good success with wood props on the Saitos.

I use the Ultra Hobby Products manifold/venturi conversion that was originally
designed by Pat Johnston. This replaces the carburetor with a manifold. You then
insert a venturi into the manifold and a needle valve assembly. I use OS NVAs, and
have had good luck with both spray bar and spigot type assemblys.

I've also run the 4S motors with the carb. wired open, but have had better luck
with a man/ven conversion. I never seemed to get quite as steady a run with the
carb wired open. The barrel in the carb would tend to vibrate just a little bit, no
matter how securely I had it wired open. I'm not saying the results were poor, I just
seem to have better luck with the conversion kits.

When running a 4S motor in CL Stunt you want to be sure to keep the motor in it's
optimum power band. You will need to use a big enough prop with enough pitch so
that the motor is not over-revved and past the power band. My needle setting is
usually just a few 'clicks' below wide open. This way the motor is making plenty of
power but won't go 'over the top' and begin to sag.

Also, once you find a good prop/needle setting combo 4S motors require very little fiddling.
This season I got the Saturn out for the first time in April and got a few flights in
to get the rust off the ol' flyin' arm. Once I found a good needle setting I put in a couple
of more practice sessions, flew in the Texarkana contest, flew in the Houston contest
3 weeks later and put in another practice session without touching the needle once.
I finally had to adjust it this weekend as the weather has gotten hot (90+) and muggy
here in TX. I turned it out 2 clicks and probably won't have to touch it again until the
Nats. The 4S are also very economical, I am using 3.5 oz. of Powermaster 20/20 4S fule
per flight. I can get about 35 flights out of one gallon of fuel.

Hope this helps, and good luck, Steve

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 11:06:25 AM »
I too have messed with the 4 stroke a bit.

You could look here for some reading:

http://www.egpworld.com/ultrahobby/teamuhp/4stroke.htm

I would recommend Bob Reeves' setup for the Surpass 40 for a Vector 40.

Steve Moon's OS max 52 setup has made me believe this is the best of the large 4 stroke engines out there.  The OS Max 52 will make more power than most 2 cycle setups, and the UHP venturi used on this engine affords even more adjustment than the unit for the Saito 56/72.

If you are running a 52/56 sized 4 cycle and are complaining about "power" you have a problem, and it is not the size of your engine.

Lastly, side mount the 4 stroke engine if at all possible.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline proparc

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 02:26:32 PM »
Andreas,
I post a lot about 4 strokes on Bob's Forum. But, as to your question, I have the Saito 72 and 40A and plan to buy the new FA-62A shortly. If you don't plan to buy a lot of 4 strokes like Walter Hicks and myself, then go "up the middle" with something like the 52 surpass or the Saito 62-FA. These motors will take care of just about any 650 class plane out there. If I was limited to one Saito, I would go for the 62 because, it has a little more muscle than the 56 and has less vibration than the 72.

Just recently, we held the Knights Joust contest down here in Socal and the turnout in Expert was very heavy.  Shuren Wang of China, (he doesn't speak English, has an interpreter with him) won 1st place with a beautiful Saito 56 Golden Knight powered plane. He knows all the members of the Chinese F2B Team. Igor Patchenko's Saito 56 powered plane also cut through the bad turbulence like a hot knife through butter.

My turn will be coming shortly, (I was judging  Expert) and it looks like the 62 will get first call with the 72 on back-up.  4 strokes are simply just not for everybody in control line,(they are EXTREMELY popular in RC) but you won't know if you don't try.

Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 08:28:32 PM »
Real quick, have a pilots meeting in the morning and need to get some sleep... Here at Brodaks, my Saito 56 ran for 10 min 30 seconds on 4 ounces of YS 20-20, turning a Bolly 13-6 at 8800. Most everything is running longer but this was the most dramatic..

Offline proparc

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 09:30:52 PM »
Real quick, have a pilots meeting in the morning and need to get some sleep... Here at Brodaks, my Saito 56 ran for 10 min 30 seconds on 4 ounces of YS 20-20, turning a Bolly 13-6 at 8800. Most everything is running longer but this was the most dramatic..

Is this a question? In any event, a loooong time ago, I posted about the effects of altitude on 4 strokes.  4 strokes are just like car engines, if it has a carburetor, it is going to more susceptible to atmospheric conditions than a fuel injected motor. 4 strokes, (my 4 strokes) are noticebly more susceptible to altitude and less to general atmospheric conditions, (I use very good fuel). I just compensate. Get some sleep, wake up fresh and "go get some".
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline andreas johansson

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 12:17:05 AM »
Hi guys

Thanks for your answers, you are great!  :)

Andreas
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2007, 05:32:14 AM »
Real quick, have a pilots meeting in the morning and need to get some sleep... Here at Brodaks, my Saito 56 ran for 10 min 30 seconds on 4 ounces of YS 20-20, turning a Bolly 13-6 at 8800. Most everything is running longer but this was the most dramatic..

Open the needle 100 RPM, and use less fuel.

You might check your pressure line.

Are you making power?  Are you satisfied with the power?
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline andreas johansson

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2007, 02:09:46 PM »
By the way, are there any venturi conversations available for the OS line of 4-stroke engines?

Andreas
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 08:42:57 PM »
Open the needle 100 RPM, and use less fuel.

You might check your pressure line.

Are you making power?  Are you satisfied with the power?

Reset the adjustable venturi and needle with a tach before I flew it, didn't notice any power difference, just run time.. weird.. Still not getting the power I think I should out of the engine but found 4 Rev-Up 13-7.5 props in Brodaks hobby shop. When I get back home I am going to put one on and see if I can't get closer to the 40 in run quality. Already decided not to fly it in competition here so further development can wait till I get back home...

BTW: The 40 is a jewel, reset the venturi and needle before the first test flights on Saturday and it's simply been awesome, several asking what I am running and several comments on how well it's working.

Offline proparc

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 09:16:06 PM »
I love my Saito 40A like you can't imagine. That is the good news. The bad news is that I love my Saito 40A like you can't imagine. I just don't want to put it on a profile. I am saving it for a really nice classics plane.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2007, 04:24:32 AM »
The 40a pounding out the power at Brodaks..


Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 11:02:07 AM »
Reset the adjustable venturi and needle with a tach before I flew it, didn't notice any power difference, just run time.. weird.. Still not getting the power I think I should out of the engine but found 4 Rev-Up 13-7.5 props in Brodaks hobby shop. When I get back home I am going to put one on and see if I can't get closer to the 40 in run quality. Already decided not to fly it in competition here so further development can wait till I get back home...

BTW: The 40 is a jewel, reset the venturi and needle before the first test flights on Saturday and it's simply been awesome, several asking what I am running and several comments on how well it's working.

I would love to get you down to Dallas for a weekend and we could ring that thing out.  Not to mention the fact we could get the Score all trimmed out.

I have a new OS max 52, TT 54 and TT75 we could slap in there too.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2007, 11:44:52 PM »
I have a Thunder Tiger 52 I would like to use in a HEAVY (Nice paint job though ;-) Profile Cardinal. Does anyone have any experience with the Thunder Tiger 52 4stroke in CL?

Does the UHP CL venturi for the OS/Saito 52 fit the Thunder Tiger 52?

TIA for any help.

PS: Like ProPark, I too was very impressed with the Satio 52 powered planes at our Joust CL contest. They flew through the wind and turbulence like a freight train. They never missed a beat and it did not seem to mater if they were up, down, or sideways! Another benefit: They were almost as quiet as my electric plane. They flew on looooong lines, my guess 68' eye to eye.

Regards   H^^
Rudy
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2007, 07:47:58 PM »
I would love to get you down to Dallas for a weekend and we could ring that thing out.  Not to mention the fact we could get the Score all trimmed out.

I have a new OS max 52, TT 54 and TT75 we could slap in there too.

That just may happen, have some stuff to take care of when I get back, have to get the mirror meet over with and I am sure the grass will be 2 feet tall with all the rain the wife says we are getting but I would love to spend a weekend in Dallas playing with airplanes  ;D

Offline andreas johansson

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Re: 4-stroke question
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2007, 03:03:44 PM »
Hi guys

Thanks for your input!

As a Nobler fanatic, I´ve ordered a second Nobler ARF to use for evaluating the 4-stroke concept (no Vector this time). I plan to use a OS FS40S engine (it seems to fit). Ofcourse I will do the required modifications to the Nobler.

Andreas
 
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