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Author Topic: 36X BB Break in  (Read 3579 times)

Offline mike londke

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36X BB Break in
« on: September 09, 2015, 08:39:18 AM »
I have a NIB Fox 36X BB that I need to break in. It will be run on bladder pressure. I found this thread using the search engine, does it apply to the BB version as well? What nitro/oil content? Thanks, Mike http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,8065.0.html
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 06:05:30 PM »
I'd say that advice is good, BB or not.  I can tell you Duke would have had you do much of the break in on Superfuel (28% oil) then go to Dukes Fuel which I think was about 25-26% castor.  Once broke in you might run Mistle Mist which I can only guess was at least 22%.  Duke depended on the oil in his engines.  Don't get stingy with it.  They are wonderful but in the day they weren't CNC machined and didn't use the higher quality metals of today.

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Offline mike londke

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 05:39:07 PM »
I'd say that advice is good, BB or not.  I can tell you Duke would have had you do much of the break in on Superfuel (28% oil) then go to Dukes Fuel which I think was about 25-26% castor.  Once broke in you might run Mistle Mist which I can only guess was at least 22%.  Duke depended on the oil in his engines.  Don't get stingy with it.  They are wonderful but in the day they weren't CNC machined and didn't use the higher quality metals of today.

Dave
Thanks Dave.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 08:23:01 PM »
Duke's Fuel  was 20% oil, Missile Mist  was 17 to 18 % oil content. you will do much better with a 22% part synthetic fuel
the engine will last longer, run better for a longer time, if your starting with a fairly new engine

Randy

Offline mike londke

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 09:23:48 PM »
Duke's Fuel  was 20% oil, Missile Mist  was 17 to 18 % oil content. you will do much better with a 22% part synthetic fuel
the engine will last longer, run better for a longer time, if your starting with a fairly new engine

Randy
Randy, I have everything to brew my own. What % synth and castor for the %22 total? Thanks.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2015, 09:56:51 PM »
Randy, I have everything to brew my own. What % synth and castor for the %22 total? Thanks.

you could brew 15% castor with 7% synth, 10 nitro would be great for that engine

Randy

Offline mike londke

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2015, 10:21:22 AM »
you could brew 15% castor with 7% synth, 10 nitro would be great for that engine

Randy
Great, Thanks.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 09:39:50 AM »
If you want that to be a decent engine you have to hone the bottom of the sleeve out and put some boca bearings in it. Run it like a Fox 35 stunt with Fox superfuel 5/25. Iron piston engines all have the same problem, if you push them hard they get extremely hot. Synthetic oil will just end your rod bearing faster.


MM

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 08:00:03 PM »
Fox Superfuel is not 5/25, and almost ..no one .. no one runs a 36X  like a FOX 35, the formula I gave him will run very well. and it WILL protect the engine bearings piston/ sleeve way better than Duke;s Fuel , or  Missle Mist which most used to run them, I still have many of my 36X Fox engines  that ran on synthetic blend for many 100s of flights, they, like my 35s  are  still in very good shape.
Rods are  excellent too

Randy

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2015, 11:33:24 AM »
Hi Dave.
Sounds like a combat set up? You have good advice. I would not go below 25% castor oil. You're not going to be flying  competition with it and I'm guessing it's far a vintage event? Anyway, castor is what works best for the old pistons and liners. They get hot and that's where castor really comes through. You can use a decent pre-mix fuel like power master 10% nitro, and add castor to it. If you can mix your own, stay around 10% Nitro for the old girl. Unfortunately they take some running unlike the new materials we use today. Adrian Duncan did a review of diesel break in procedure, and because the metals in this article are of the same vintage, it applies. http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/dieselcombat/about_diesels.htm

This will give you a good idea of what is and is not going on during a break-in.

Good luck.

Ken

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2015, 02:31:07 PM »
Below is a part of the article pinned  at the top of this forum, you may want to read it all, and modern synthetic oil is much better than castor.. unless  you plan to run the engine over lean.

" Years ago, most fuels had only one oil ,castor.  This is still a very good oil with many good but some bad points.  Some of its good points; it carries heat out of the motor and gives a good plating action on all surfaces, especially when they’re hot. It also has tendencies to move toward hot surfaces, helping to protect them.  A few of its bad points; it burns and sticks to the piston sides and the ring groove and all other parts that are hot enough, and will carbonize the chamber. It will stick rings in their grooves, freeze wrist pins and build up ridges on sleeves.  This causes excess friction and heat and will ruin your motor in time.

The alternative to castor is synthetic oil and almost all fuels have these in them; the vast majority has all synthetic.  Virtually all fuel manufactures use one type of synthetic; these are normally polyalkylene glycol based oils.  They are mostly made up of alcohol started linear polymers , of oxypropylene groups.  These are made by several companies and are available in a large range of molecular weights and viscosities.

This group of oils is the modern version of the old Ucon oils and also have good and bad points.  Some of the goods points; they are very good lubes without containing any wax; they have outstanding load carrying capacity, film strength, anti-wear properties, are resistant to sludge formation, and will help keep your engine clean.  The bad points are they give no rust protection by themselves, they don’t plate hot surfaces as well as castor and they burn at high heats.

As you can see, both oils have advantages and disadvantages to them; it’s for these reasons that they work much better blending together than they could ever work alone.  Throughout many years of flying ,testing and other research have proven this to me beyond any doubt; plus you can see this for yourself.  Recently, a friend of mine had a motor that would go into the pattern and lean out and act very inconsistently.  The only change that was made was to substitute one tank of my fuel in the model.  The results were drastically different; the motor now ran very smoothly, going into a two cycle instantly when the nose was raised and back into a four cycle instantly when the plane was leveled.  This was tried back and forth both fuels; his and mine.  The results were  the same every time. I see this type of thing happen much too often, and it is extremely frustrating for Flyers to deal with. They often blame these fuel problems on cooling, cowlings, motors ,fuel filters, and unfortunately some don’t have a clue how to recognize or  solve this problem. This is  a frustration that you can live  without!

I would like to tell you there is one Stunt fuel formula to run in all motors, I said I would like to tell you that…unfortunately this is not the case, and will never be as long as we have such a wide range of motors and running styles.  What I will tell you is a good formula for the most common types of engines.  Make sure you pick a fuel supplier who will give you consistent fuel day to day ,and will blend fuel for your motor needs or has fuel to match your needs.  Stay away from any supplier who will not tell you the oil percentage, or who say one type works for all motors. I see this  much to  often also, It is unfortunate, but a lot of fuel manufactures will try to fool you about the oil and nitro percentage. One trick is to measure  by weight and not volume. Doing so, they can claim that the fuel is  for example 18 % oil , when in reality it is only 14.9 % oil content. Using weight  for ingredient , they can put in a  lot less oil and nitro . Other things are changing oil types, going to cheaper Nitro’s, and adding in other types of Nitro parrafins.

   So what percentage do you try? For motors like Fox .35s, OS Max 35s or the old McCoy’s and K&B’s, use a fuel with 26 to 28% oil content; preferably half castor and half synthetic, up to 75% castor  is OK. These  motors have very small bearing surfaces, and are subject to much wear and heat, most are all plain bushing motors and most have unbushed rods. They need a lot of  oil  to help cool the engines. Since these motors run hot, they need  extra oil to keep them lubed,clean, and to carry out heat . If you have one of these that is  in very good  shape but, is  just starting to get some brown or black varnish plating on it, the synthetic mix will clean it  up for you, resulting in increased life.  Do not use the synthetic  blend in an old motor that has a lot of time on it with all castor fuels; the synthetic will remove the castor varnish off the piston and sleeve and will in some cases, leave you with the worn-out motor that had to start with.  Also always try to NOT use  prop shaft extensions with these engine, as it adds a  lot of  wear on the crankshaft bearing. "


Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2015, 10:00:27 AM »
Randy,

When you say an engine is "just starting to get some brown or black varnish plating on it", is there a particular place to look? I ask because I have some that seem to look good on the inside but have cooked on oil on the outside of the head. Maybe the inside of the liner?
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2015, 10:24:50 AM »
Randy,

When you say an engine is "just starting to get some brown or black varnish plating on it", is there a particular place to look? I ask because I have some that seem to look good on the inside but have cooked on oil on the outside of the head. Maybe the inside of the liner?

the parts I am concerned with is the piston and sleeve, the piston typically will start to turn color when it gets burned castor on it, it will range from a light brown stain, to having the top and sides coated heavy with burned on castor, on ringed engines it can, and does get so bad with castor , the burned plating will stick the ring in the groove, it will not operate normally when this happens.
About the outside of the head being covered with burned oil, you can remove the head and clean it, with no ill effect, not so much with the piston and sleeve.

Randy

Offline Brian Gardner

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2015, 04:17:40 AM »
I almost have enough numbers on the waiting list to run another batch of ABC piston/liner/rod/pin sets for these.

Offline mike londke

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2015, 07:22:07 AM »
Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread, I think I have what I need.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2015, 09:34:57 AM »
Randy, please tell me what brand of synthetic oil is the best because, I'm ready to believe.

My experience is from racing which is an extreme test. When you're pushing things to failure it changes the landscape. I found that there is no amount of synthetic oil you can add that will prevent deposits and provide the same lubrication as castor so why use any. On certain (abc) engines with all castor fuel the pistons would turn jet black and still run great.

I also race the ringed K&B 4011 fully leaned out with all castor fuel. I found in the tank limited events the all castor fuel would get 10% more mileage not sure why. You don't want that castor drying up in there. One thing I do is to run off a few primes of 75%naptha 25%ATF after flying. It flushes the castor out and leaves everything coated with ATF. Haven't had a ring stick doing that.   

I usually mix my own all castor fuel so I know what's in it but, I drank the coolaid just recently and bought a gallon of pre-mix 1/2 castor 1/2 synthetic for my high revving ABC rat race engines. Got through 1/2 gal before I noticed my engines were wearing out very fast. I mixed the rest with an equal amount of all castor fuel and I'm using it in a stunt engine that runs flat rich.

I believe it was a certain brand oil that's not very good so, I'm looking for a better synthetic. You say you know of a synthetic oil that's better than castor? Which brand do you use, I'm ready to believe.

MM   

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2015, 10:55:32 AM »
Randy, please tell me what brand of synthetic oil is the best because, I'm ready to believe.

My experience is from racing which is an extreme test. When you're pushing things to failure it changes the landscape. I found that there is no amount of synthetic oil you can add that will prevent deposits and provide the same lubrication as castor so why use any. On certain (abc) engines with all castor fuel the pistons would turn jet black and still run great.

I also race the ringed K&B 4011 fully leaned out with all castor fuel. I found in the tank limited events the all castor fuel would get 10% more mileage not sure why. You don't want that castor drying up in there. One thing I do is to run off a few primes of 75%naptha 25%ATF after flying. It flushes the castor out and leaves everything coated with ATF. Haven't had a ring stick doing that.  

I usually mix my own all castor fuel so I know what's in it but, I drank the coolaid just recently and bought a gallon of pre-mix 1/2 castor 1/2 synthetic for my high revving ABC rat race engines. Got through 1/2 gal before I noticed my engines were wearing out very fast. I mixed the rest with an equal amount of all castor fuel and I'm using it in a stunt engine that runs flat rich.

I believe it was a certain brand oil that's not very good so, I'm looking for a better synthetic. You say you know of a synthetic oil that's better than castor? Which brand do you use, I'm ready to believe.

MM  

below is a link to a few, you can use Klotz techniplate, get it from many sources SIG sells it, Tower etc,,  is has  zero castor, if you have your own castor  use this, or  you can buy  SUPER Techniplate, it is blended with 20% Benol castor, in this case use just as it is .
Benol is excellent castor, or SIG sells Bakers castor, which is pretty good too. DOW chemical  I think, now owns Union Carbide, they make the LB series of synth lubes, that is another source. I have done extensive test on oils we use for models, a blend is best with premium oils, it will increase the film strength pressures by up to 10,000 psi in some cases.
I make Aero-1  fuel supplement, its great in model plane engines to help increase life, decrease wear, and protect from lean runs, 1000s of modelers  have used it for decades now.

Morgan , the people that make Cool Power, also have a very good oil, (they don't use enough of it in their fuels..) I am not sure if they will sell just the oil, but I think they make the oil Hobby warehouse sells

https://www.klotzlube.com/ECommerce/category/radio-controlled

http://www.hobbywarehouse.com/2-Cycle-Oil-Synthetic-Quart

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&P=SM&C=PFE&V=KSF
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 11:24:33 AM by RandySmith »

Online Frank Imbriaco

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2015, 01:27:52 PM »
Yesterday we had an absolutely  fantastic turnout at the Vintage Combat Festival here in NJ. Fox 36x BBs have been king here since introduced around 1965. With the exception of a few  guys who modified their Fox 36XX BBs with the Gardner  ABC Piston/Liner( who now must run synthetic),  we feel that when available , an all castor or majority castor  fuel is the way to go to promote longevity and satisfying performance.

 Yesterday ,I flew  one of my 1972 L.S. ( Larry Scarinzi modified ) 36x BB engines in my Scrambler design( M.A.N. Jan. 1972 )  on  P.M. 10/29 Castor fuel( no longer available) . This engine saw plenty of duty from 1972-1975 running Missile Mist and some higher nitro all castor fuels.  Other fellows have box stock Fox 35/36x combat engines from 1957- 1975 including bushed and  needle bearing variants and they, too,  are castor devotees.( 29% is the high end content; 25% will be just fine).

Since I put it back in service last year , mine  has performed  just like back in the day ; albeit a bit slower because of the lower nitro content. Being  a senior citizen, I'm looking to keep it under 115 MPH as my reflexes ain't  what they used to be back as when I was, and I say this humbly, a National  level combat flier.
 
Yes, it has the original ball bearings and some  castor  tanning  to the piston /liner and head  which when required,  will be  removed. Zero carbon build up.

Not wishing to get into a debate with anyone , mind you. And,  not at all saying don't use synthetic, but here's some  history and  feel free to  ignore it or embrace it.

Like most, I've used and prefer synthetic fuels for  modern R/C engines - fuels   that contain a small amount (usually 4% castor of the total) like   P.M.   20/20 blend  for  my 4 stroke YS Pattern engines and OS 2 stroke Pattern and 4 stroke sport engines. Burned cases and cases of the stuff before switching to electric. Have run synthetics with great results  in newer design U/C engines( that don't have steel piston/liners)- that's a given .

Good Luck

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2015, 02:07:36 PM »
   MM   
see below an excerpt from one of my articles , when you run a speed motor  lean/hard, the   one   good thing castor is good for, is it will burn and smear over the hot metal, this protects it, it also does some harmful things, I explain this in my article, part is below, if you want read all of it  posted at the top of this forum


" Years ago, most fuels had only one oil ,castor.  This is still a very good oil with many good but some bad points.  Some of its good points; it carries heat out of the motor and gives a good plating action on all surfaces, especially when they’re hot. It also has tendencies to move toward hot surfaces, helping to protect them.  A few of its bad points; it burns and sticks to the piston sides and the ring groove and all other parts that are hot enough, and will carbonize the chamber. It will stick rings in their grooves, freeze wrist pins and build up ridges on sleeves.  This causes excess friction and heat and will ruin your motor in time.

The alternative to castor is synthetic oil and almost all fuels have these in them; the vast majority has all synthetic.  Virtually all fuel manufactures use one type of synthetic; these are normally polyalkylene glycol based oils.  They are mostly made up of alcohol started linear polymers , of oxypropylene groups.  These are made by several companies and are available in a large range of molecular weights and viscosities.

This group of oils is the modern version of the old Ucon oils and also have good and bad points.  Some of the goods points; they are very good lubes without containing any wax; they have outstanding load carrying capacity, film strength, anti-wear properties, are resistant to sludge formation, and will help keep your engine clean.  The bad points are they give no rust protection by themselves, they don’t plate hot surfaces as well as castor and they burn at high heats.

As you can see, both oils have advantages and disadvantages to them; it’s for these reasons that they work much better blending together than they could ever work alone.  Throughout many years of flying ,testing and other research have proven this to me beyond any doubt; plus you can see this for yourself.  Recently, a friend of mine had a motor that would go into the pattern and lean out and act very inconsistently.  The only change that was made was to substitute one tank of my fuel in the model.  The results were drastically different; the motor now ran very smoothly, going into a two cycle instantly when the nose was raised and back into a four cycle instantly when the plane was leveled.  This was tried back and forth both fuels; his and mine.  The results were  the same every time. I see this type of thing happen much too often, and it is extremely frustrating for Flyers to deal with. They often blame these fuel problems on cooling, cowlings, motors ,fuel filters, and unfortunately some don’t have a clue how to recognize or  solve this problem. This is  a frustration that you can live  without! "

Offline riley wooten

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2015, 08:31:01 PM »
For what it is worth this was my standard break in for the Fox 36XBB to be used in combat in the 60's. This was after I had modified and fitted the engine to my specs and not a factory fitted engine.  All my records and notes were lost in the Lone Star fire so this is memory only.  Fuel was 15% castor and 10% Ucon LB625 with 10 to 15% nitro.  Prop, either a cut down 10x6 or 11x5, cut to 7" long and carefully balanced.  The first few runs of about 1-1/2 to 2 minutes long at a very fast 4 cycle. We wanted to run it fast but cool, with runs gradually  getting faster and leaner. Never let it get lean enough to sag.  I wanted to run it close to the in flight rpm on the light load and slightly rich. The same fuel with less Ucon (5 to 7%) and 25% nitro was what I used in competition. Very easy to set and 115+ mph rigged for combat...........Worked for me!
RW

Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2015, 10:11:30 PM »
 " ,I flew  one of my 1972 L.S. ( Larry Scarinzi modified ) 36x BB engines in my Scrambler design( M.A.N. Jan. 1972 )  on  P.M. 10/29 Castor fuel( no longer available) . This engine saw plenty of duty from 1972-1975 running Missile Mist and some higher nitro all castor fuels.  Other fellows have box stock Fox 35/36x combat engines from 1957- 1975 including bushed and  needle bearing variants and they, too,  are castor devotees.( 29% is the high end content; 25% will be just fine).

Since I put it back in service last year , mine  has performed  just like back in the day ; albeit a bit slower because of the lower nitro content. Being  a senior citizen, I'm looking to keep it under 115 MPH as my reflexes ain't  what they used to be back as when I was, and I say this humbly, a National  level combat flier. "

Missile Mist was 17% oil... it did not protect the engines  too well, but it did power em up..so did 40/40 .. adding 4 to 5 ounces of synthetic helped enormously .

I am impressed if you have a 115 MPH FOX running  Super Fuel 10/29  5% nitro

Randy

Online Frank Imbriaco

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2015, 06:31:13 AM »
Randy :

FYI:
You took the opportunity  to skip the word "under" in my comment .  I also said that it was an original circa 1972 Scarinzi modded 36xBB.

Much hotter mill.

Didn't say I could do it with 10% . And, I use  a 9 inch wood  prop.

With an 8x8 composite  and significantly higher nitro, it'll  top 115 MPH.   Original Scramblers that we flew in the early 70s on Blast were at and above 120 MPH.

The plane weighs under 18 ounces , dry .

Why not join in the fun at the next Vintage Combat Festival ?




Offline RandySmith

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Re: 36X BB Break in
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2015, 09:47:20 AM »
Randy :

FYI:
You took the opportunity  to skip the word "under" in my comment .  I also said that it was an original circa 1972 Scarinzi modded 36xBB.

Much hotter mill.

Didn't say I could do it with 10% . And, I use  a 9 inch wood  prop.

With an 8x8 composite  and significantly higher nitro, it'll  top 115 MPH.   Original Scramblers that we flew in the early 70s on Blast were at and above 120 MPH.

The plane weighs under 18 ounces , dry .

Why not join in the fun at the next Vintage Combat Festival ?





Hi Frank

I would love to join in, sounds like you guys had a blast... I still have a few long tail Voodoo's ,Bosta, and Mongoose SC  here, they are just itching to get torn up :-)   one of them even has one of my old FOX 36 X  mills   on it.

Randy


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