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Author Topic: Practice flying alone and Bladders  (Read 3660 times)

Offline dave siegler

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Practice flying alone and Bladders
« on: September 20, 2006, 08:31:30 PM »
Any tips for starting up a combat airplane when practice flying with a stooge? Using a bladder alone makes me nervous, I need like 6 hands to pinch, hold and flip.  The F2d method, with the prop between my legs is not my idea of safe.

Dave
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Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2006, 12:32:18 AM »
Well, I'll take a shot. First, you need a positive "head-lock" type plug connector. My favorite is the twist-lock version found on the Radio South Glow Driver, which solves some other issues, too, such as flooded engine or dry, etc.

You also need a simple fuel line pincher, so that the filled bladder can be connected to the spraybar for starting without flooding the engine. I used a piece of 1/16" wire. This is wound 1½ turns into a circle for mounting to the top motor mount with a wood screw, and one arm projects forward at a slight angle. When the bladder is full, slide the fuel line under the arm of the pinchoff, and connect it to the spraybar. Honestly, it takes longer to describe than to make!

When you're ready to fly, anchor the down end of the handle. This is a safety, in case the stooge lets go accidentally. If you're lucky, the only damage will be a broken prop.

After fueling, install the plane in the stooge. Prime the engine and flip a few times. Grasp the plane by the motor mounts with your left hand with your thumb just behind the fuel line. Connect the battery and  start the engine and release the fuel line with your left thumb. You may leave the glowplug connector attached while tuning the engine. Then disconnect the twist-lock and proceed quickly (but carefully) to the handle and fly. The procedure becomes easier with practice. (Imagine that!)

The primary advantages of the procedure I've outlined is that you're in line with the prop disk for only a few seconds after starting, and you never have to reach across the prop to do anything. And the same procedure works if you'rea Lefty; just reverse Right and Left for each step.

Oh, yeah. If you're a Lefty (and start with your Right hand) - - after starting, walk around the outboard wing to  the rear of the plane, and then out to the handle. You absolutely do not want to be in front of the lines should the stooge release prematurely! And if the worst should happen, never try to "save the plane" by grabbing the lines with your bare hand; the cables will cut right through to the bone (and maybe through bone if it's a Fast Combat plane.

And this whole procedure is probably unworkable if you have a rear-exhaust engine. At the very least, considerable adjustment will be necessary. I hope I haven't omitted something crucial; I try never to fly alone; even with aerobatic planes, and especially not when using a Carbon Fiber prop!
(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2006, 01:12:48 PM »
hemastats help on fueling

would like details of your stooge

should mount handle to ground  somehow until your ready for take off

David
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Offline Richard Grogan

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2006, 03:36:59 PM »
A long,metal ,eye hooked skewer(for shishkabobs) drove in circle-center should do the trick with the handle's safety thong looped in the skewers eye. My thongs are on the down side of my handles....Prevents a fly-away.
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2006, 04:38:03 PM »
i hate thongs---although i think i caused there use in combat---2 flyaways in one month--had an infection in palm of hand and was flying with fingers.probably shouldnt have been flying.
 David
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Offline dave siegler

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2006, 10:14:54 PM »
hemastats help on fueling

would like details of your stooge

My stooge is a workmate with a chunk of shag carpet in it.  The carpet is clamps in such a way that it wraps around the outside wing like a sheath.  You start the motor stick the airplane in the sheath then give it a good tug from the handle to launch.

Just starting the motor can be sporty.  I can start an f2d holding the airplane vertical between my knees, but the 9" prop on my speed limit airplanes scare me.

Dave 

   
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Offline phil c

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2006, 08:28:21 AM »
Please guys, don't try to start planes with 9 in props F2D style.  Even an 8 in. prop is marginal.  You need to be about 7 ft. tall for it too work safely.  Start 'em in the stooge.

The workmate/sleeve stooge is tricky to use.  it works best on relatively short span, high powered planes- in other words, F2D's.  Practive using the thing when you have a helper around.  Sometimes it can be really tricky to get the plane in the air.  When you pull on the lines to pull the plane out the plane wants to yaw away from you.  Then, as soon as it clears the launcher it trys to swing back in.  You need to be prepared to whip it hard and step back fast to keep the lines at all tight.  Also be careful of the wind.  The launcher has to be a bit to the right of dead down wind so you have a partial lap to whip the plane straight before it comes into the wind.  Nail the stooge to the ground.  Otherwise it may tip over on the launch.  Set it up with the plane fairly high, around 3 ft., to give it some room to settle and not hit the ground.
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Offline dave siegler

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2006, 09:43:51 AM »
Please guys, don't try to start planes with 9 in props F2D style.  Even an 8 in. prop is marginal.  You need to be about 7 ft. tall for it too work safely.  Start 'em in the stooge.

The workmate/sleeve stooge is tricky to use.  it works best on relatively short span, high powered planes- in other words, F2D's.  Practive using the thing when you have a helper around.  Sometimes it can be really tricky to get the plane in the air.  When you pull on the lines to pull the plane out the plane wants to yaw away from you.  Then, as soon as it clears the launcher it trys to swing back in.  You need to be prepared to whip it hard and step back fast to keep the lines at all tight.  Also be careful of the wind.  The launcher has to be a bit to the right of dead down wind so you have a partial lap to whip the plane straight before it comes into the wind.  Nail the stooge to the ground.  Otherwise it may tip over on the launch.  Set it up with the plane fairly high, around 3 ft., to give it some room to settle and not hit the ground.


Well I'm 6'5 and even the 7 inch props are too close for me.

Will Speed limit combat planes ,F2d with OS25's, and fomies work in this stooge?  I've got no local helpers most of the time.

Dave 
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2006, 10:44:21 AM »
can someone explain this start it between the legs thing

sounds ugh--dangerous--you do still use finger to start?or another part of yourself!?!?!?!?!

when i was young--real young i built a mouse trap kinda launcher for combats the held nose up about 45% that worked real well and held airplane fairly secure for starting.

working out details for better one

 youngest son wants to do .35 combat(weve done 1/2a togeather) and have 2 double voo doo kits(pigs--but both with same plane/engine/prop=fun)
guess ill need to make 2 stooges.
will still need someone to say go and start clocks!

David
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Offline phil c

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2006, 07:25:54 AM »
Most F2D pitcrew use this starting method, so each pitman can start and run a plane if needed.  Hold the outboard wing tightly between your knees, angled down.  If needed, the inboard tip can rest on the ground for extra support.  Hold the fuel line with your left hand.  Flip the prop with your right hand.  EVERYBODY uses a glow plug clip, not the head lock RC type connector.  On F2D size planes <7 in. props this is a pretty safe and secure method of starting.  At least as good as having another person hold the plane.  The plane is locked in place between your knees and won't be going anywhere.  The biggest danger is reaching around the prop to grab the plane for launching.  This is where things can get cramped really quick using larger planes and props.  Most people just aren't tall enough, with long enough arms, to do it safely and reliably.  I got one of my worst ever prop cuts on the left thumb trying this with an LA 40 and a 9 in. prop.  The bigger motors pull harder, vibrate more, are harder to control, and have a lot less room to work around.  It all happened at once, and the prop cut 13 slits up the outside of my thumb.

Tim Hobbins sent me this picture from a Glasgow meet this year, in the rain.

Larry Driskill ran a picture of the sleeve launcher in his Flying Models column last year.

The sleeve launcher has the big advantage of no moving parts to fail.  On the smaller planes, 25 and under, the sleeve is very secure.  Starts to get alittle iffy on larger engines and planes over 48 in.  The mouse trap type launcher needs some careful work on the mechanism so it can't vibrate open.  I've seen more than one do that.
phil Cartier

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2006, 05:16:39 PM »
Dave,

Here is a great site showing several stooges for CL combat. There are also other articles on bladders, etc.

I agree with the flier who said stake down the table. Also having a guy line to hold "against" our line pull seems like a good idea too, as shown on the tripod stooge.

I have been using the excellent Mooris stooge for CLPA flying and it is flawless. :-)

Here is the link:   http://www.clcombat.info/equipment.html

Good Luck
Rudy
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2006, 09:53:02 AM »
one of our local fliers used a 55 gal drum

he would put his lines around the drum so that airplane and handel were in same place==start engine---hold airplane in right hand pick up handle with left(he is a lefty)-release airplane so that barrel was pivot for lines until lines were straight.
lines would slide on barel for control until lines were straight.

im a lefty to but for somereason this method scared me

David
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Offline Richard Grogan

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2006, 02:06:39 PM »
one of our local fliers used a 55 gal drum

he would put his lines around the drum so that airplane and handel were in same place==start engine---hold airplane in right hand pick up handle with left(he is a lefty)-release airplane so that barrel was pivot for lines until lines were straight.
lines would slide on barel for control until lines were straight.

im a lefty to but for somereason this method scared me

David


Dang David! %^

That one sounds like it should come with a disclaimer" :X Don't try this at home :X"!!!

I'd like to see a video of that next time you get a chance!! f~    ~>

Richard
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2006, 07:56:29 PM »
noooooooo!
not me!
a friend combat flier(in pineville) used to do it.
 he flew big irons/twisters/supertwisters/phantasy
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Offline Richard Grogan

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2006, 08:12:05 PM »
noooooooo!
not me!
a friend combat flier(in pineville) used to do it.
 he flew big irons/twisters/supertwisters/phantasy

OK, since you stated where he was from that makes sense! I guess he was in the "Combat Flyer Ward" before he did it!! ~^

I can pretty much visualize how to do it, but man,
 youve got to be a nut to think of it!! f~   ~>

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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2006, 04:01:20 AM »
I'm not comfy with the current F2d "crotch lock" method, although thousands of satisfied customers can't wrong.

When I single-handedly start a bladder job, I use the time-honored genuflect positon.

Right knee on the ground, left leg supports the model. 
Inboard wingtip can be into the ground, if you wish. 

Left palm presses the model against my left knee while the left fingers are free to manipulate the fuel line and needle valve.  Flick the prop right handed.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 07:32:45 AM by ama21835 »
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2006, 01:47:07 PM »
Here's my rig:

1/16" wire loop on the tail.

Monowheel nose gear, with a Dave Brown pylon wheel.

Drag rag on the outboard tip - essential to keep it lined up while you're going out to the handle..

Canadian-made precision release device, screwed to scrap wood, nailed to Earth, heavily weighted, and warded by spell.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 07:30:28 PM by ama21835 »
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Offline Iskandar Taib

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 08:00:42 PM »
Well, I'll take a shot. First, you need a positive "head-lock" type plug connector. My favorite is the twist-lock version found on the Radio South Glow Driver, which solves some other issues, too, such as flooded engine or dry, etc.

Don't use these. Buy or make a clothespin type glow clip, use a long (5 -6 foot) cord to the battery (the Radio South unit is a good one). I've never seen any competitive pilot use a head-lock connector - just too fiddly in a match. Not to mention the possibility of launching with the thing still attached (the worst that would happen with a clothespin type is the post of the glowplug breaking off).

Quote
You also need a simple fuel line pincher, so that the filled bladder can be connected to the spraybar for starting without flooding the engine. I used a piece of 1/16" wire. This is wound 1½ turns into a circle for mounting to the top motor mount with a wood screw, and one arm projects forward at a slight angle. When the bladder is full, slide the fuel line under the arm of the pinchoff, and connect it to the spraybar. Honestly, it takes longer to describe than to make!

Again, what most competition pilots do is squeeze the fuel line shut with the FINGERS when starting. You use the fuel clip when you're filling the bladder, or when the airplane is sitting, waiting for the start, before a match. Once you get ready to start, unclip the line and hold it closed with your fingers. This requires, of course, the right fuel line - a lot is way too stiff for this. I use latex tubing, myself, even if it does tend to rot after a while. I augment my fingers with little polycarbonate line clips:



Nice thing about these is that you can squeeze them shut without actually locking them.

The F2D starting position is actually quite good - it does seem precarious if you've not done it before, but it works pretty well provided you're starting something with a 7" prop or less. I wouldn't try this with a Fast Combat or a Speed Limit with a bigger prop. If you're looking for something to sport fly, get a Magnum or ASP .15, some motor mounts from Bryce and mount the engine on a regular F2D wing. Use a soft nylon 7x4 prop and you'll never break one. On 52 foot lines you get enough speed for it to be fun. If you want something hotter, get a 1/2-A.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 08:18:44 PM by Iskandar Taib »

Offline Iskandar Taib

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 08:15:26 PM »
delete duplicate

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2007, 09:56:46 AM »
Here's a slick fuel line pinchoff.  Large line clip, mounted to the MM. Slide fuel line back and forth as needed.

--Ray
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Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 10:23:31 AM »
Grabbing the flying lines to stop the plane from crashing isn't too big a problem.  I only have a small scar left ftom when I did it in '59.  Well, maybe not too small, but the plane crashed and was totalled anyway.  I'm still not happy about that.

Bob
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Offline David Miller

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2008, 01:05:34 PM »
Bob, I will have to vehemently disagree. DO NOT GRAB THE LINES! I am still doing physical therapy on the little finger on my left hand. I cut all the way thru the nerve and tendon. This happened on 29 May. 5 hrs in hospital and stitches that fri, followed by emergency surguy on Mon to reattach tendon and nerve. No feeling in outside of finger forever more. Still doing phsical therapy on finger to restore movement. I was flying my Tutor II with La .46 Best combo I ever had. Tried a new uniflo tank. Was in outside portion of overhead figure 8 when it suddenly quit with no warning. My best  ever plane going straight in on asphalt. I know better but my reflexes took over and I tried to save the plane at the last second by yanking the lines with my left hand. Good thing I wasn't quicker or those .018 lines would have also cut all the way thru my palm. So I say again. DO NOT GRAB THE LINES! mw~
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Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: Practice flying alone and Bladders
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2008, 12:06:14 PM »
Dave,

That entire post was totally tongue in cheek.  I was luckier than you in that I retained use of my finger.  That was only a Fox Rocket in an Omega.  It bled like a stuck pig and hurt like mad for months, but no permanent damage. 

I totally agree with you, "NEVER EVER grab the lines". The plane is lost no matter what you do at that point in time. Grabbing the lines still gives you no control.  I'll never do it again.

Bob
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