Author Topic: Lil Hacker wing for combat??? (Read 9712 times)

Rosie Rosenau · « **on:** January 19, 2015, 12:18:08 AM »

Hi team. I want to make a electric 1/2a combat plane like the Litehawk or the Arrowplane. I have a case of core house lil hacker foam wing. I prefer the litehawk design since its controls are outside the wing. The problem I see is the hacker wing are shorter than those two planes. I also like the use of an arrow shaft for the boom. I need some help/ ideas with these builds. I use 3 cell 1000 battery and I have arrowind 2210/25 and Emax XA 2212/ 1400 kV. I will have 30 amp ESC and use the Brodak timer FM-0c.

Will anyone help ?

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2015, 12:38:09 AM »

I prefer this idea but can it be done with a lil hacker foam wings?

Bob Mears · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2015, 08:41:34 AM »

Wing loading might be a bit heavy with the Hacker wings, but certainly could be used. The complete Hacker platform is too heavy for a really good flying electric. I would use the wings and build an c/f arrow shaft fuse to make it lighter. I've got a couple of electric built. I'll try to get some pics on here tomorrow. One is built from an old original light hawk, the other is really small. I'm trying to make it an indoor combat model.

bm

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2015, 07:28:42 AM »

Here is what I have so far. Target flying weight looks like 350grams. In combat I know speed is life and weight is death. Any recommendations?

Bob Mears · « **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2015, 07:27:49 AM »

Kind of an overkill on the bell crank. Get a 1/2a plastic one and save the weight.

Bob Mears · « **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2015, 10:06:30 AM »

I built one of these little dudes. It flys ok. Not much of a real combat plane. Excellent kit though. Made it fun to build.

http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAero-SCRAM-Control-Line-Combat-Model-SAK-SCRAM100.html

Bob Mears · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2015, 10:08:27 AM »

Here's the electric indoor combat plane I build. flys well on 20' spider wire.

Bob Mears · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2015, 10:12:36 AM »

This is the one Im anxious to try. I think it might be a winner. Its one of the older Driskill planes. It used to have a VA on it. It might be too much motor.....naaahhh...no such thing as too much motor

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2015, 09:39:23 PM »

LOL never to much power indeed.... lol well I found a nice light weight Carl Goldberg 1/2a bell crank and found micro park flyer pushrod connectors. a super light weight pushrod that is not soft but very stiff. I also have some aluminum tube just one size bigger than the pushrod. I will make 3 separate 1" long pieces and will glue and tape them in place. I do not like the motor mount. Any way to make one lighter and stronger?

phil c · « **Reply #9 on:** March 14, 2015, 06:32:50 PM »

I cut some electric front end parts for the Li'l Hacker, basically squaring up the nose just enough to allow the motor(Turnigy 28-20 1640 kV, no longer available). The motor is backplate mounted, with the shaft going through the firewall. This protects it from ground pounding and prevents prop torque from twisting the rotating can into the stator.
1000 mAh 3S E-flight pack, Castle 25 amp ESC and an 8 gr. cheap, cheap, cheap car radio for control. Plane is stock construction.
All up weight is 290 grams(10.2 oz. vs 7oz. for glow power). The battery, ESC, and timer(or receiver) is all of the extra weight including at least 10 grams of wire and extra plugs. With a 7/5 APCe prop it flies exactly like a Cox Black Widow powered version, except it runs 3 min. instead of 2 and it doesn't turn quite as tight The prop is mounted on a flexible mount, secured with an O ring. That works for this low power. Its about 140 watts of power, which almost exactly matches the power and efficiency calculations for the run time. Hobbyking is still listing a Turnigy 2824-1400kV, only a few grams heavier, which can take 20 amps. That would get more performance with the right prop and bring the run time down to a little over 2min.

350 grams seems way too much weight if the basically stock kit can be built to 290. All that carbon fiber and epoxy may be the problem. It is very easy to get 2-3 times more epoxy on it than you need and add an ounce or more. The carbon should be back along the trailing edge and across the center section. There is only needs to go out to about 1/3 span and you can add a 1in strip straight across to form a triangle.

With the motor mounted in a lite ply box there is plenty of room behind that for a hard balsa block to mount a 1/4 in arrowshaft boom. Use hard balsa spars, saves 20 grams over the stock bass spars. Use 1/16 in balsa for a tip rib and 1/16 in sheet for a wing tip of about 2in. span. That brings the wing span and wing area up closer to the Fora sized planes and the longer span will carry the weight better.

BTW, a Fora-powered Yuvenko 1/2A weighs about 225gr. , plus 60 grams of fuel(10 oz.) But it produces about twice the power for twice the time. The best batteries are still twice as heavy as we need!

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #10 on:** March 14, 2015, 09:18:54 PM »

That's a great job Phil!
Here was my example. Note the 1/4 inch nose extension one or two or TEN.... LOL Why so many it was to get it balanced. How did it fly? Like a very flat underpowered 1/2A.

Lessons learned? I will put the battery all the way front to the leading edge.
2nd. Not cover the wing do to the fact it warped the them foam trailing edge.
I ended up slicing out the trailing edge three times due to the warpage once I added heat and ad hearing the mono coat. Regular not the low heat mono coat... lol

I learned a lot... of what NOT to do... lol

I really like how you centered the battery and I will do the same on the next hacker.

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #11 on:** March 14, 2015, 09:36:39 PM »

I was using an Emax XA 2212/1400kv 1000 mAh 3cell and a Emax 25 amp ESC

kenneth cook · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2015, 06:12:58 PM »

This is my plane using Phil's Hacker wings. I've made my version of Driskill's Litehawk as well. I don't use electric and never would even consider trying it so I don't know what to tell you there. This plane I made however shares the similarities of the Litehawk.

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2015, 06:34:34 PM »

Great job Ken, that is one part of what I have been looking for to see if it could be done. The main reason I do electric is I have no one in my town to fly with so I enjoy pushing the start delay button and walking out to the handle and knowing my power will be 100% for me for 2 mins. Can you by any chance let me know what the parts all measure out to so I can duplicate the airframe?

kenneth cook · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2015, 06:46:58 PM »

First thing of importance is cutting the arrow shaft groove. You need to do this accurately. I was able to use a 1/4" straight cutter in my router table. I cut the groove perfectly in the center from leading edge to trailing edge. This breaks out in the rear due to the trailing edge being thin. I wrap a small piece of masking tape along the root and around the trailing edge to prevent tear out from the bit. After both wing panels have the groove cut in, I use a dowel with sandpaper glued on it just slightly smaller than the arrow shaft itself. I can sand the groove into a radius that matches my dowel. This will leave enough room for Gorilla glue.

My wing panels are not shortened, there as Phil provides them in the cores. Essentially I just drew a radius from trailing edge to leading edge. While i could provide you my hinge point, it probably wouldn't do you any good due to the fact I'm using a engine. I use carbon cloth around the nose and tail set in a thinned white glue. I use a basswood noseblock . ANother thing of importance, I sand down 1/4" dowels to fit inside the arrow shafts. One is in the front stiffening the nose and it extends back to the bellcrank bolt which passes all the way through the arrowshaft. I use 1/64" ply top and bottom from the spars back which also assists the bolt in terms of strength. Ken

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2015, 10:11:53 PM »

Ken, thank you. Those are all key bits that are just NOT in any set of plans. I trust the elevator is the same size as the litehawks as far as width and depth? Right now I have not yet found any carbon fiber cloth but I do have USAF parachute material era 2001-2006 that I have been essentially cutting in various width and lengths depending on where I am useing it.. is wing tip to wingtip trailing edges covering over the a thin piece of 1/4 x 1/8 basswood trailing edge strips . Then I cover 12inches of center spar top and bottom so 6 inches each way and finally I wrap the center wing joint. I use a thin white glue as well. The weight for just this wing is 77 grams which I do not put the radius cut and I leave squared tips. Not knowing if the extra wing area is as important as a faster turning wing with the radius wingtips. Thinking it through now. If I used a radius wing tip I could drop my 1/32 lite ply wingtip and the parachute covering of the wingtips and what 3to 4 inches of spar top and bottom both wing ends would mean 12 to 16 inched of heavy basswood wing spar. Maybe I can get the wing from 77grams to what?? Maybe 65? 12inch basswood 3/8 x 3/16 is 7 grams so say cloth and wood wing tips and glue should add up with wood to at least 10. Then the foam? No clue how much that weights. I seem to recall a combat saying. Weight equals speed.... less weight more speed live longer
Tally ho
Rosie

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2015, 10:29:31 PM »

Well my answer to my question was answered when I simply cut the radius wingtip. Weight went from 77 grams to 66grams. It is a start.

kenneth cook · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2015, 03:17:53 AM »

If you use carbon tow, you could eliminate the use of heavier spars. You could use medium to hard balsa. Strip the carbon tow into strands and apply this directly into the spar groove bedded into the white glue. Make sure the carbon tow goes from wing tip to wing tip. Glue the spars directly on top. You don't need to use lots of white glue. What you need to do however is ensure the entire surface is covered. Putting too much glue into the slot is not recommended and not only does it make a mess, but it doesn't dry correctly. A small acid brush to apply the glue in the groove, followed by the carbon tow. Brush the glue onto the back of the spar and install immediately due to the wood swelling and it won't go into the spar groove. It's a good idea to bevel the sides of the spar with a block plane prior which not only makes it go in easier it gives the glue a place to go. I use small Quick Grip clamps to hold the spar during the drying period, you need to constantly monitor the drying stage for at least the next 30 minutes. At this stage you can sight the wing panels to ensure it's straight tweaking as required. Once dry, it's not going to move.

If carbon tow isn't available to you, substitute the balsa for a light piece of basswood, as it has straight grain and it planes off easier. Don't try and squash the spars into the groove to make flush. Any material sticking up can easily be planed off with a razor plane thus removing even more weight. My first model I built like this, I used the Driskill moments. However I made the leading edge entirely straight by re cutting the roots prior to assembly. This made the model turn on a dime but it stalled the model quickly in the turns. Having leading edge sweep seemed to keep the model flying faster but it did sacrifice the turning radius slightly.

As for my elevator, while it looks to be the size of the Litehawk, I trimmed it down somewhat. If you make your elevator larger, you could always trim it down a little at a time to your liking to balance the model. If your not immediately familiar with your balance and cg locations, you can go with a 3" bellcrank to slow down your control inputs. My handle for instance used a 1 7/8" line spacing which helps tremendously and calms a twitchy 1/2A.

Coring holes in the wing panels can also reduce your weight further. I used a Contadina tomato paste can. Core the holes symmetrically just behind the spar groove. This is the thickest portion of the wing which not only yields more foam removal, but your model won't be too weak due to still having adequate material in and around the trailing edge. I believe that you could save approx an additional 7 grams of weight in doing so and possibly more. I don't know the weight of your power setup or how it attaches.

Use smaller pushrod wire and adequately support it on the tail boom. I use the thin red coffee stirrers cut into 1/2" long pieces (2) of them on the boom wrapped with Kevlar thread. You could easily substitute the thread for Spiderwire and a little CA to secure it.

Watch the weight of packing tapes, you would be amazingly surprised to see how much weight tape can add if the incorrect or too heavy tape is used. Cheap packing tape usually yields good light weight and adequate strength. You only need strips across the root top and bottom 3/8" wide, trim down wide pieces as you don't need the full width. While I do use Gorilla glue for the arrow shaft application and root to root joint, I use it sparingly. Poke holes into the root faces using a toothpick to allow the glue to permeate into the foam. Ken

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2015, 04:27:45 AM »

Here was my second combat wing. The first was the LONG nose hacker.

What is a carbon tow? I searched stunthanger for a pic or description and was not able to find it. Bummer

A longer nosed wing will not turn as tight as a short nose wing? If correct it makes sense from how this one flew. I have a light weight of landing gear that I wrap above and around the top two X motor mount. Then back inside and wrap inside the lower X motor mount bolts and sprayed out for a stable landing gear. Simple and light and interchangable from one plane to another. This way I can test fly these new experimental combat wings without a second person or an elevated slip out stooge.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2015, 07:51:07 AM »

Carbon Veil and TOW can be had here:

https://www.acpsales.com/Surfacing-Veils.html

https://www.acpsales.com/Carbon-Fiber-Tow-and-Cords.html

TOW is bundled carbon strands, typically not woven, as a long continuous filament (cord/string) with 3000, or 6000, or 12000 strands

TOW used under the spars adds a lot of tension strength as it will not stretch and greatly reduce any wing flex up or down

Most of us also use TOW or Kevlar glued to the TE. Both panels get the TOW or Cord glued from the tip back to and around the arrow shaft. This helps a lot on a nose first landing keeping the wing from flexing forward

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2015, 10:56:50 AM »

Well that stuff ain't my parachute materiel now is it.... LOL.
OK knowing I only fly control line 1/2A in either combat or stunt. Meaning my wingspans are all less than 36 inches and I will either use my Norvell .061s with a bigmig fuel tank or bladder about 5% of my flying from now on is gas. Which leaves me 95% of my flying time on my electrics. So what weight of these new magic materiels should I buy? So many options and thank you for giving me the APC link, they are awesome! Prices seem reasonable to not knowing any other sources. Electric motors seem to always be either 2212s or 2210s, at least the last 20 motors have been that size and with zippy 3 cell 1000 may batteries with a turnigy 30amp ESC , I know the ESC is a tad much but I don't think I will burn one out from now on.

If carbon material is not the best choice let me know what I should use? Payday will be here next Tuesday and I will be placing a few hundred dollar order. I tend to buy a lifetime supply or at least a 20 years supply at a time.

Thanks again for the info and link and suggestions.

I live out in the middle of the Dingtoolies of Western Washington state and can use a lot of help. So far this web forum has been very helpful.

Thank everyone on the forum, this is a group of teammates I enjoy and TRUST!

Tally ho
Rosie
Yelm, WA
3604634566

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2015, 12:41:42 PM »

Hey Rosie
I haven't heard from you since our last club meeting. Thom had a small package of CF tow at the hobby shop yesterday, if you're headed to town any time soon. You can call and tell one of the guys to put it on the peg board with your name, then it will be there when you get there. They do that all the time. Let me know when you can get together to fly, I have the CEF traveling engine for a couple more days and you are more than welcome to come fly with us. I want to fly the CEF traveling engine Friday after work, looks like we have good weather that day.
Cheers
Duke

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2015, 01:14:47 PM »

Rosie

I am originally (family tree) from Pacific Northwest. Army brat born at Aberdeen proving grounds Maryland and lived all over the world but we usually stopped by to see grandparents, Aunts n Uncles spread from Marysville down to Long beach and into northern Oregon.

When stationed twice at Ft Lewis I usually lived in Spanaway or in Lacey towards Olympia. Know the Roy Yelm area fairly well. Recent years I have been traveling up there to the Bladder Grabber in Aug

I too live out in the toolies and mail order 80% of all we need

There are other sources for the carbon materiel, some cheaper, some more pricey....I had ACP handy when I posted as I order most of this stuff from them

Not sure about other folks but I buy the arrow shafts from a local gun / bow dealer without nocks, fletches or points..

There are Bicycle and Kite shops that specialize in various carbon tube, be they straight, tapered, and all the different ways a tube can be drawn or wound, each with a different characteristic....compression strength, torsional rigidity, bow , flex...

I forgo all that learning curve and just use arrow shafts in 1/4" for 1/2a and 3/8" for 25~35 sized combat wings

I bought the 3K CF TOW 30 Ft. and 12K CF TOE 30 Ft. ( wish I had ordered 100 feet as it is very inexpensive)

I bought 1 yard each of the 35 inch wide .2 oz and .5 oz non-woven carbon fiber veil.

Ken and Jeff taught me to use watered down white glue on the foam for the CF TOW and spars. Follow Ken's advice it works well

I was making a mess of the carbon veil so on a hint from Phil C, I started using Minwax water based polycrylic to adhere the veil. Once down and wetted, I cover the area with wax paper and squeegee with a credit card to get it smoothed down.

Good luck with the electric.... I however like the smell for alcohol based fuels....grin

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2015, 02:22:56 PM »

Hey Rosie
What's the desired power you are shooting for? Are you trying to match a Cox Black Widow, Big Mig, Profi? Your 1400KV 3S set up is topping out around the mid 12,00rpm range, right? That's like a wore out Black Widow. A good Black Widow on those lil Hackers would be great, but a good one is going to run at 15-18k, a really good one around 20k. To run 20,000rpm's on 3S you should have about 2300Kv and 1700Kv on 4S set ups. Of course these are rough numbers by the math I use (which a friend helped me with when I first started into electric.). If you want a E-profi combat ship, you need to start about 3500Kv 3S or 2600Kv on 4S. Hope I did my math right and don't look stupid in front of all the smart guys.

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2015, 05:37:27 PM »

I will say this. Duke Johnson has offered for me to come and fly with him but it was on weeks when I was strapped on gas money. Duke has always been here for me with info and positive attitude. Thanks Duke. I am at Thom's shop now and they had 3 different cf strands all 5 ft but only part number and price shows a difference. The crew at the shop did not know what the diffenteces were so I just bought the two cheapest atRCF3-000 $3.49 andRCF23-000 $3.95. They will start me out. Any idea what the part numbers are to what the CF strands are? I hate not knowing something. Thanks Duke and Fredvon4 and Ken on walking me through this new area of C/L.

Duke I am strapped for cash till next Tuesday. After that then I will be able to come down to Mimas and do some C/L with you. Looking forward to it! I need to practice some combat but first need to fly in the same circle with another pilot. I am great at one plane and multiple pilots in the circle and trading off while its still in the air. I bet there is a safety no-no about that but I do my beat with what I have and know. That and the fact I am flying at home makes me not worry to much. But my junior pilots like it. When they get dizzy they know I am right there for them for fast relief.

As to Dukes question at what I shooting for? I only had one 1/2a and I put a big mig.061 on it. Before that I was flying lil jumping beans with cox 049s and Norvell .049 and .061s... I love Norvell!

First flight was scary! 3 loops at takeoff to a wingover to wow what was that?! Lol

I am using a 7-5 pusher prop. I know my ROMs are low compared to Norvell or Cox but they will not spin a 7-5 prop. I will be flying with 35 ft lines metal cables .012 is it 7 strand? For competition but will use spectra spider wire until then and in general till I get a working model.

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2015, 06:05:20 PM »

Rosie
Thom must have put more CF tow on the shelf. Whatever you bought there will work for 1/2A. Most of his guys don't build, they are RC guys

, but they are all great guys. Thom is usually there early.

What kind of RPM's are you turning with your current set up? Or what are your lap times on the 35' lines? I think it would be fun to find a cheap plane and electric set up and bash some combat planes. There are some great air foils to use with DTF foam and you have me thinking about it now. We don't have a local Electric 1/2A combat contest, we do have one local event they will allow e-ships though. But we could get something together and have our own mini contests, maybe we could pull a couple of our RC guys in. I have to change the oil on my wife's car, but maybe after that I can cut a KF wing and see what come out.

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #26 on:** March 17, 2015, 06:43:37 PM »

Last month I bought 20 sheets from dollar tree.. let's see thats 20 times dollar tree money times inflation decided by the fun we will have. Yup 20 bucks. We can make a 30 Inch version of the Man-win in DTF.it can not me that hard. I have a simple lights weight wood motor mount that the braces for the bell crank are mounted to. And they can be made even lighter now I think about it. So far after a bad crash with this design. I unbolt the bell crank and tear free the motor and bell crank supports since they have not broken yet.

I use Brodak 2nd cheapest timer since it does power and time at a simple screw. I would love to get more of hobby kings donkey motor ESC setups. The 2204 is a little small but the next one up should work and make it fly like a raped aped.... patent pending on that claim to fame.

Sorry I missed this months TCMAA monthly meeting I will try again. Next month.

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #27 on:** March 17, 2015, 06:47:21 PM »

By the way Duke, be sure to smear some of the wife's car oil on your face and walk in the house to see her. when she asks what you are doing. Give her Bill Cosby's Shop answer and tell her that this week you are building a Boeing 747.
LOL

phil c · « **Reply #28 on:** March 24, 2015, 09:12:58 PM »

Quote from: Duke.Johnson on March 17, 2015, 02:22:56 PM

Hey Rosie
What's the desired power you are shooting for? Are you trying to match a Cox Black Widow, Big Mig, Profi? Your 1400KV 3S set up is topping out around the mid 12,00rpm range, right? That's like a wore out Black Widow. A good Black Widow on those lil Hackers would be great, but a good one is going to run at 15-18k, a really good one around 20k. To run 20,000rpm's on 3S you should have about 2300Kv and 1700Kv on 4S set ups. Of course these are rough numbers by the math I use (which a friend helped me with when I first started into electric.). If you want a E-profi combat ship, you need to start about 3500Kv 3S or 2600Kv on 4S. Hope I did my math right and don't look stupid in front of all the smart guys.

You don't necessarily have to run electrics at the same rpm as glow engines. Especially with a governor running the motor can be set to keep a consistent rpm and automatically increase the power when turning to maintain the rpm.

Glow engines, especially F2D and Half A are running extremely fast(32,000 rpm or so). At those rpms the prop is probably wasting at least half the power, but then when you do sharp turns the motor doesn't slow down as much and keeps the airspeed up. Kind of like a governor, but wasting a lot of power to do it.

For electrics the problem is still battery weight, twice what we'd like. I have seen news releases on the web that promise some major improvements in battery technology in the next few years. We'll see. Hobby King, the famous Chinese supplier, was selling a new type of lipo battery with different chemistry that produced 15+ volts from 3 cells with lower internal resistance. That would represent 30-40% more power/weight. Of course they are more expensive and need a new type of charger too!

Rosie Rosenau · « **Reply #29 on:** March 24, 2015, 09:28:49 PM »

So if I understand you... electric 1/2a combat will have a chance... we will just need to wait a bit longer ... a year or two to have technology catch up at a normal price range. Well I am glad to be starting now... in two years I may even be flying in a circle with another and not alone...

By the way I did meet up with Duke at a local RC field on Sunday and I got to fly these as a guest and his son did an awesome job flying my 1/2a Magician with flaps. Two thumbs up to your son Duke. You and your boys can fly my planes anytime!
Tally ho
Rosie

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #30 on:** March 24, 2015, 09:37:48 PM »

Quote from: phil c on March 24, 2015, 09:12:58 PM

You don't necessarily have to run electrics at the same rpm as glow engines. Especially with a governor running the motor can be set to keep a consistent rpm and automatically increase the power when turning to maintain the rpm.

Glow engines, especially F2D and Half A are running extremely fast(32,000 rpm or so). At those rpms the prop is probably wasting at least half the power, but then when you do sharp turns the motor doesn't slow down as much and keeps the airspeed up. Kind of like a governor, but wasting a lot of power to do it.

For electrics the problem is still battery weight, twice what we'd like. I have seen news releases on the web that promise some major improvements in battery technology in the next few years. We'll see. Hobby King, the famous Chinese supplier, was selling a new type of lipo battery with different chemistry that produced 15+ volts from 3 cells with lower internal resistance. That would represent 30-40% more power/weight. Of course they are more expensive and need a new type of charger too!

I have noticed as I've been getting into electric planes, they can throw a bigger prop at the same rpm's and the electric props are way more efficient. I've started with the same nitro size prop at the same rpm's, then put a bigger prop on and lowered the rpm's to make the electric planes happy.

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #31 on:** March 24, 2015, 09:39:52 PM »

Quote from: Rosie Rosenau on March 24, 2015, 09:28:49 PM

So if I understand you... electric 1/2a combat will have a chance... we will just need to wait a bit longer ... a year or two to have technology catch up at a normal price range. Well I am glad to be starting now... in two years I may even be flying in a circle with another and not alone...

By the way I did meet up with Duke at a local RC field on Sunday and I got to fly these as a guest and his son did an awesome job flying my 1/2a Magician with flaps. Two thumbs up to your son Duke. You and your boys can fly my planes anytime!
Tally ho
Rosie

Glad you made it out and we could fly after the Gremlin races. Wish the weather would have been better and we had more time. Next time.