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Author Topic: Classic Combat kits  (Read 2149 times)

Offline LARRY RICE

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Classic Combat kits
« on: December 11, 2009, 03:10:58 AM »
     We have recieved permission to kit the Mongoose starting in July. It will be laser cut and band sawed and follow the original plans. It will include full size plans and complete hardware.
     We have been kitting the Demon for a couple of years with a good deal of success and now it is getting a re-work to include a one piece wing and full size plans-should be ready in late January.
     Just wanted to let you Know.
Black Hawk Models
Larry
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Offline Gary James

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 06:35:02 AM »
I'll bet that Howard would be very pleased to have you kit the Nemesis II which is the best airplane of that generation.  How about it Howard?
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Gary James
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 07:11:52 AM »
The historic problem with combat kits has always been that the models are so easy to build that most people just buy the wood and scratch-build them.

So I would advise kit makers to concentrate on taper-wings and other "hard-to-copy" designs that would justify the expense of a kit.  

The Scalpel, designed by Chuck Rudner is a good example. It's a compromise between an Nemesis and a Bosta. As explained by a noted aeronautical engineer, the Bosta is 100% aerodynamically efficient, but almost impossible to build without being weak or overweight. The Nemesis is only 90% efficient, but easy to build. The Scalpel is 98% efficient, and once the ribs are cut, almost as easy to assemble as a Nemesis.

For those who haven't seen them, the Bosta is a true elliptical wing, the Nemesis is a rectangle, and the Scalpel is a triple-taper that approximates an ellipse.  In reality, a combat plane can overcome the slight loss in efficiency by carrying a little more wing area.

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but I play one on The Internet.
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Paul Smith

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 03:27:57 PM »
Hi Larry: I like the idea of kitting combat designs. I don't fly the event but enjoy having a combat plane in the fleet to take out and excercise once in awhile. I hope the kits will be aimed at least partially at non-competative (combat anyway) fliers and be engineered to utilize commercial available uni-flow tanks (no bladders please) since they will be powered by sport engines anyway. My late-great Voo-Doo used an Enya 5224 35 for power.

Request: Bill Netzeband's "Half-Fast" delta combat wing. Fits the requirement for uniqueness and not an easy design to scratch build IMHO. Oh, yes, like all of Bills designs, a good flier also.  8)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 04:37:20 PM by Pete Cunha »
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Pete Cunha
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Dwayne

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 03:56:38 PM »
I love this! How about doing the Nemesis II and or the Voodoo.
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Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 05:18:19 PM »
    In today's combat circles wood combat planes are not concerned to be competitive, however when a couple show at a local field .... well you know.
    When choosing a model plane to kit we do not look for it's uniqueness or that it would be hard to scratch build. So here is how it is done: 1- decide the type of plane you think will sell. 2- Decide if you can make it; how much needs to be sent out and how much can be done in shop. 3- Projected cost; can it be sold cheap enough to discourage scratch builders? 4- CAN YOU GET PERMISSION FROM THE ORIGINAL DESIGNER. 5- will it be an easy build for less skilled hobbyist. The last step is taking it to the Company's Partners and showing them What you want to do, why, and why you think that it is important.
     When a project is okay-ed then you need to fight with the laser cutter for time on the laser.
      In the case of the DEMON and the MONGOOSE I had hoped to get the designers to okay other models but this is it. Both fill all of our needs and since we only make FUN models these will fit right in.
Larry
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Offline phil c

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 07:21:26 PM »
You can't copyright a design, although it would be courteous to ask the guy who designed it before selling a kit of his design.  The plans would be copyrighted, if there were any, but you'd only need to copy them if you were trying to make a "counterfeit" kit.  The names, graphics, etc. could be trademarked but that means it does have to be used in trade.  You can't leave a trademark on the shelf for 50 years and be guaranteed that a court would agree it's still solely yours.  Many companies with old trademarks regularly, every couple years, make small batches of whatever and ship it out just to ensure the trademark is still valid.
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phil Cartier

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 09:48:26 PM »
     Thank You Phil, I am aware of all of the legal ins and outs. The point is that rather than pirate a design, or use it just because you can the RIGHT and ETHICAL thing to do is get permission from the designer who invested his time and sweat into designing and testing his creation. If you are not Ethical and doing the Right thing then maybe you need to rethink what you are doing and why you are doing it. I am proud of every kit that we make and the fact that we never had to pirate anyones design.
     Phil, I am sure that you were just pointing out facts and not suggesting anything special in your post. It is just that I see so many people that think this is Okay to do and it is sort of a pet peeve.
Larry
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 10:25:47 PM by LARRY RICE »
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 02:02:04 PM »
The truth of the matter is that the U-controll market is so small that there is no room for lawores.  Hopefully most in the hobby understand this.  My hats off to Larry for a job well done. He has the best interest of U-controll at heart.

 H^^  H^^  H^^   H^^   H^^     H^^
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Offline Gordan Delaney

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 09:32:20 AM »
Quote from: Gary James on December 11, 2009, 06:35:02 AM
I'll bet that Howard would be very pleased to have you kit the Nemesis II which is the best airplane of that generation.  How about it Howard?

Gary,
Although the Nemesis is a very good plane I think there is one even better. And that would have been the Challenger. Designed in 1971.Jim Womach and myself did alot of testing and found the challenger could turn inside the Nemesis and still keep it`s speed. Dirty Dan, Howard Rush and Phip Granderson all flew it. Hope they still remember flying it.Just remembered George Cleveland,Dick Subblefield,and Pat Wilcox flew it also.

Gordy
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Offline Terrence Durrill

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 12:13:48 PM »
Gordon, The Nemesis II is a great combat ship and just about the ultimate design.  I built some in the early 1970's.  Sure would like to see a picture of the Challenger if you have one and can post it......TDurrill   H^^
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Offline Gordan Delaney

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 06:48:59 PM »
Terrence,
I still have one of the early 70 Challengers hanging on my wall.I`ll have to have my buddy to come and take a picture of it and then I can post it here. At that time Phil thought it was the best Combat plane he had ever flown. My buddy Jim Womach Built 4 Nemisis and we did alot of Combat flying and testing between these two planes. Jim Womach won the Bladder Grabber with a Challenger That he change to a foamy.But that was later in or about 1987or88? It also got bigger and longer tail moment 502 Sq. inches.
the 70 series was 368 sqs.

Gordy
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Offline Stan Bidowski

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Re: Classic Combat kits
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2010, 05:14:22 AM »
Make a Nemesis double kit, cheap.
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