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Author Topic: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????  (Read 2932 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« on: January 24, 2009, 09:48:50 AM »
Phil, the site here lost some histroy.

How about a re-posting on where you stand vis-a-vis events and rules at this year's Brodak.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 12:07:59 PM »
http://www.brodak.com/fly-in.php?id=29


Weeeellllll, as of today, the 2009 Rules are up on Brodak's site, so I guess my answer is questioned.
Paul Smith

Offline phil c

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 10:12:38 AM »
This is what is to be published for WW II Combat at Brodak's FlyIn.

World War II Control Line Combat Rules


Purpose: This event is intended to provide pilots an opportunity to fly realistic-looking planes from the “Great War” to simulate full scale air combat. The emphasis is on safety, having fun, and, as in the real war, getting back home in one piece.

Models: Any profile model(fuselage no more than ¾ in. wide in the top view) of any WW II vintage fighter/fighter bomber is allowed. The maximum wingspan is 48 in. The maximum wing area is 500 square inches. Original designs are encouraged. For original designs the fuselage profile must be scaled approximately 1.25 in. to the foot and be at least 5 in. high. The wing can be scaled proportionally and does not have to be in the exact scale location in the fuse and may have an enlarged chord. The fin, rudder, stab and elevator can be rescaled for appearance and enlarged for stability. Wings should follow the original profile- Corsairs, Stukas need to have a gull wing. Other plane look better with dihedral.

The following kits or kit reproductions are allowed as designed:

Brodak Mustang, Messerschmitt, Focke Wulf, Mauler. Midwest designs- Mustang, Focke Wulf, King Cobra, etc..

Goldberg P40

Sterling Mustang, Yak 9

Flying Models Plans- Ziroli Zero, Combat P-38, Miss BJ(B. Jones)

Barry Baxter Plans- Wildcat(Ziroli)

Core House Plans 'n Cores designs

Any other WW II published profile model you can dredge up that fits the overall dimensional rules.


Landing gear is not required. Most planes fly better with the wheels up, unless scale appearance requires landing gear(the Stuka and some Japanese planes come to mind).

Engines- limited to plain bearing “sport” 40's or smaller. Smaller engines may use ball bearings.

Fuel system- any tank or fuel system is allowed.


Each pilot is allowed two models. During the regular event on Friday the pilot's first choice model will be on display near the combat circle. The pilots and judges will judge each model(identified by the AMA number) for scale appearance, color scheme, and overall impression with a total score of 0-100. Pilots can supply a single 3 view to help the judges evaluate their model. Zero is an undecorated slow combat model. 100 is an excellent Profile scale model. These points will be added to the pilot's score for each match. If a pilot switches to his backup model for any reason the bonus points will not be awarded for flights using that model.

All the other rules and conduct of the contest will follow the regular combat rules for Brodak's Flyin. Flying will start after the regular combat event is done. Depending on weather and time and number of entries flying will continue into Saturday.


************* my additional comments*****************
Only one plane will be scored for appearance because the judges have enough to do.  If you crash it and can't or won't fix it, you lose some points.  Most of the guys in WW II who crashed lost a lot more than that.

Most of these planes scale to 48 in. with a factor of around 1.3-1.4in./ft.  The fuselages will come out around 7-8 in. high and 40 in. long.  Many of the designs are remarkably similar and have big tail volumes so they will fly well nearly dead scale, as long as you can get the balance point right.  An additional inch or so of chord will bring the wing area up to the high 400's for decent flying.  Keep it light!
phil Cartier

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 01:43:16 PM »
Thanks , Phil.  That's pretty clear.  Is this right?

The appearance points get added to every match where you use the scale plane?

70 MPH without a streamer?

WWII is flown on Friday after SL 70?
Paul Smith

Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 09:57:50 PM »
Hi Phil,
This means your Warbird foamies are "kosher", right? Look good, fly well; don't know about durability . . .


(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
AMA 495785 League City, TX

Offline phil c

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 06:13:41 PM »
Paul:
"Flying will start after the regular combat event is done. Depending on weather and time and number of entries flying will continue into Saturday."
"These points will be added to the pilot's score for each match."
"If a pilot switches to his backup model for any reason the bonus points will not be awarded for flights using that model."

7.3 sec/2 laps works out to a bit over 70 mph.

Ralph, any homebrew design is allowed that meets the wingspan, area, and fuse height conditions.  The warbird foamies are allowed, as long as they meet the rules.  I'm on the third iteration of these, and some of the earlier ones have wings that are too long.  Interesting looking at the numbers.  Most of the WW II fighters had good layouts for a good flying CL plane.  Problems are getting the balance point right, and keeping the tails light enough.  And adding a bit of chord to get better turns.
phil Cartier

Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2009, 08:36:47 PM »
Hi Phil, This sounds like a real fun event! I am glad you proposed it for all of us fliers and spectators alike. Now for the real question, Will starters be permitted in this event?

Tally Ho!

Phil Spillman
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Offline phil c

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 11:04:20 AM »
Sorry Phil, but starters are not allowed in the AMA rules.  Maybe get somebody else to start it for you.
phil Cartier

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 08:16:34 PM »
Sorry Phil, but starters are not allowed in the AMA rules.  Maybe get somebody else to start it for you.

If you were thinking TWIN (P-38, Mosquito, Bf-110, etc), forget it. 
There's nothing more unsafe thna hand-flipping the second engine when you're on the clock.
Paul Smith

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 08:39:44 AM »
FWIW:  If you want a twin that's not a twin check out the Ziroli Combat P-38 -it's a single, twin booms, engine in the middle.  8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 11:53:34 AM »
I was thinking about, maybe, a REAL twin twin.  But I sure wouldn't ever try to start BOTH engines by hand, certainly not "on the clock".
Paul Smith

Offline catdaddy

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2009, 12:41:17 PM »
Anyone built anything for this event yet?
regards,
Rick"catdaddy"Blankenship

Offline Chad Hill

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2009, 07:37:33 PM »
7.3 secs WITHOUT a streamer...70 mph WITHOUT a streamer...hope it ain't windy!!
Chad Hill

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 02:16:26 PM »
7.3 secs WITHOUT a streamer...70 mph WITHOUT a streamer...hope it ain't windy!!
Chad Hill

Good point !!

A scale combat plane that complies with all the rules and the 70 MPH speed limit would be a sittin' duck on a windy day.

Fortunately, Carmichaels is not the International Centre of Aeromodeling.  It's down in a hollar surrounded by a lot of trees, so wind isn't much of an issue.

If is is windy, the rules give you the option of foregoing the (maximum) 100 scale points and using your spare (a ViKo with carbon fibre trailing edge, kevlar reinforced ribs and an OS 25 on bladder pressure).
Paul Smith

ChrisSarnowski

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 10:17:32 AM »
Just thought I'd mention what ships (I think) were used in the WWII Combat:

Phil Cartier: Fokke Wulf FW190
Howard Shenton : Messerschmidtt BF-109
Catdaddy: Grumman F6F Hellcat
Paul Smith : Nakajima Ki-27 "Nate"
Brad Smith : Curtiss P40 Warhawk

I believe Paul's back up ship was a Hellcat, but not in Navy colors.

We had fun counting cuts and watching the matches, hope the competitors had fun too!

-Chris

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 05:55:28 AM »
My backup was a Cosmic Wind converted into a Layfayette Esquidrille Curtis Hawk.  

I used it to more closedly match Howard Shenton's backup model.

I could have used it as my starter if the Nate didn't go.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 09:37:35 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline howard shenton

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 10:11:43 AM »
The reason I was flying the backup ship, OLD sidewinder, was that in trying to get 180 Deg. apart Brad Smith and I failed to communicate and he did a loop to separate us as I was doing a wingover, We met at the top of the circle with some fuselage. rudder and wing covering damage, on the Me 109, but both planes kept flying. I eventually got a cut and Brad got the whole string on one of his attacks.
Fun event!
Thanks Phil for making it happen.

Howard Shenton
Howard Shenton AMA 83412
Mauldin, SC 29662

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 11:37:42 AM »
I guess I have to wait until my copy of "Control Line World" gets here in order to find the results!  Having fin is what it is all about.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

ChrisSarnowski

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 05:37:29 PM »
Hey Paul,

Sorry about mis-identifying the Hawk. It's a nice looking ship. Next year I will have something put together for the WWII combat event.

-Chris

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2009, 10:56:11 PM »
Profile twins with two .20s ?  you often get first flick starts !

Now for the profile Oriental lecture ! One uses those moments/ areas .

Gotta 262 , Mosquito and Whirlwind , A certain Trostle was sent several Drgs. ( Edit if  unwelcome )

With ventuies sized for good consistancy, there no trouble to operate. Need 80 cc odd ( + )  tanks .

Good for P-40 stunt too . . .

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2009, 09:41:00 AM »
A twin would be a neat trick, if they let you use an electric starter and/or start "off the clock" before the five minutes.

Hand propping the second engine "on the clock" is too hand-threatening for me and a serious liability for the sponser.
Paul Smith

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Brodak Speed Limit and WWII combat ????
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 07:04:08 PM »

 Another THING . !

 Threw on the "scale " column - Vis, B-17 /F2D Combat wing Cross. Hybrid.

 Semi Scale profile , with modern construction for wing . How would one of

these things go with FOUR .10s !

NOW , we know your NOT ALLOWED TO . but if you throw a rag in the prop ,
she'll start first flick . ACTUALLY ! worrying about a rag in the prop, when they regularly get the whole football field in the prop, often vertically
seems a bit inpertanant, lacking in proportion , equilibrium etc . ANYWAY

 Throwing a couple of three foot  one in Sq. with four in , x 1/8 tips, gets you the two metre ( 78 in. ) wingspan,
 with half a dozen ribs per side, that new fangled plastic covering , and engines hung all over it , we'd start to get somewhere.

A spruce goose with eight norvel .049s would equal . 40 Cu in.                                                     Oh Dear !

However , any two well run in twentys , would have to give rather good value for the effort .
Probly wear a good kevlar ski glove , or welders glove , as the noise / visual bit with the props is sometimes a bit out .


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