I'm thinking of starting a beginner combat around .15 sport engines. 
Thinking so far:
.15 sport engines
speed limit(not sure on the max speed yet)
any plane(not sure on min sq.in)
52' lines


Any thoughts? Planes that would work with engines?  Anyone tried it?

That is a great idea.

I like the idea and will throw it out there. I want to include as many people as I can, so I want to be careful not to put tomany limits on engines and planes.  But maybe they will like this idea, we already have NW Sport Race with a Fow .35.  And they like that.

This looks a lot like New Zealand rules slow combat . 52' (15.92m) lines ,3.3 sec lap times . The Kiwi's run mostly F2D planes with sport .15's .Two classes ,1 plane ! Old diesel planes also work as will anything that turns well at those speeds .

The Formula  that we fly at Brodak's is even more beginner friendly .60' lines and slow speeds . The 60' lines gives you more "room" .In NZ combat the short lines allow the models to stay out on the lines better but you have less sky to hide in .

Most speed limit events are "run what you bring" and can be very cost effective .Around here the locals recycle old F2D models found in the bin . Sometimes it takes 3 models to make 1 but "free" is pretty cheap .

Brad

Thanks for your input guys.  I think I'll wait to see what they want to run next year.  If they run 80mph, my boys and I will build and run what we have for he first  year.  If they don't, I like the idea of sport 15 combat, any sport 15, any plane, 52' line, and a speed limit.

                  One thing I feel which may be an issue is trying to regulate the speed of a .15. While we do it successfully using plain bearing .25's this becomes very problematic using ball bearing .25's as the engine just doesn't want to run slow. Going out to longer line lengths with a .15 such as 60's in my opinion isn't the solution as the line tension dramatically is lessened. I've had better luck at flying the .15's using .018's on 52's but you don't always gain using them as the feel of the plane is now compromised slightly. Unless your group of flyers are willing to use the same engine, I find it might be very difficult for you to place a speed limit on .15 size models unless you specify one or certain engine types. If your allowing f2d engines, the speeds are going to be difficult to control from one plane to the next.

For the beginner, this can be very difficult unless someone that your flying with is already utilizing a way to regulate the speeds. This way all can copy that current setup. Phil C put our group of flyers on the path early on using .15's. These were pretty much OS LA engines. The OS LA .15 will run out of the box using the stock needle valve and bladder on currently available props like the thin bladed Master Airscrew 7x4's.  It will however work better if you use a remote OS #1A needle on the engine as you can lean it up more. The stock rear mounted needle is coarse and the taper of the needle doesn't allow for a peaked needle setting like the #1A does. One thing that was expressed early on to our crowd was  to not let the current F2d equipment out there cloud your head. Keep it simple as possible and use currently available components.

Flying any of the F2d wings is more or less going to be a Kamikaze flight. For the most part, to my knowledge that's what is  currently available and they're not going to withstand ground pounding. Sport .15's aren't going to fly these the same way as F2d engines. I've built several foamies based around Phil's Gotch 400 sq cores. Easy to fix and I've done my share of hitting the ground. Having enough planes to fly is key (Note to self). I would suggest having 3 planes per pilot per day (Another note to self).  The foamies planes take a bit of experience to build, but many on here can be most helpful in regards to how and what to do. I've been exploring the .15 size once again but I'm using older F2d engine designs that are considered no longer competitive.

Using built up balsa wings such as suggested is going to deter any new flyer in my opinion. These take time to build and they're done in one hit. Rules for beginner combat: #1 have fun, #2 don't maneuver unless you can see your opponent, #3 see #1, #4 don't fall in love with your plane. Ken

I don't know that I said, but I was thinking of this for our local events.  Hope I didn't confuse anyone.  You all have helped a ton with your ideas and comments.
Thanks

Fox 35 Combat has been done as well, and can be tons of fun. But there's always 'that guy' who bores out his venturi, does some grinding on the crank port, or some other tweak and is about 20mph faster than everybody else. That's why I like the speed limit idea. Anything goes, as long as you don't exceed XXmph. Skill classes help, too, that way you might be flying against an expert, but you're competing against your peers. The experts have lighter, tighter turning stuff, and a skill set to match, but the beginners are keeping up and learning a thing or two.

Out of all the ideas for Beginner/Entry Level Combat, I like the Fox 35 idea the most.  We have a NW race with Fox 35's, one of my boys a I entered this year and had a blast with it.

It seems to me that a speed limit makes all other engine limitations irrelevant.

No event will ever be a "beginner" event unless experienced competitors are excluded.

Maybe "low tech" or "low performace" would be a better name than "beginner".

Joe
Bi-slob combat would be crazy man. 

Low Tech, Low performance, beginner, entry level, it doesn't matter what you call it to me.  I don't get caught up in that kind of thing.

IMHO, a 25 sized purpose build foamie is the best way to get started.  They are cheap, and quick to build and repair.  The mild 25's starts easily on bladders.  I love fox 35's but modern 25's make as much power and are easier to live by.

That being said, is Asia guys run sport (OS) .15 engines in slow combat and have a ball.  A regular F2d airplane with a milder engine is just fine. 

The any sport plane thing scares me.  You need an airplane that can hit the ground and re-fly.  You will hit the ground much more often than the other plane, the ground is a lot bigger.
if a simple mistake requires a complete re-kit, it will turn people off. 

You can put 2 sport planes up with streamers and have one guy fly level and practice getting cuts.   So you can get started there. 
   

As for an engine

here is a nice conversion
http://flyinglines.org/buzz.Fx25.html

one of Phil's planes is great or derivatives of them
http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/
http://www.tulsacl.com/YankeeNipper.html

Talked to Jim's wife yesterday she told that they didn't have anything advertised left and didn't know when or if they would have more. I'm in the process of building some nippers myself. I do now that corehouse can supply the cores.
Tim

Duke, Jim did not sell kits but he had all the stuff to get you well on your way to build Yankee Nippers. He sold the plans, pine center ribs, and some really nice motor mounts that were reversible for different size engines. I started SL 2 years ago and Yankee Nippers is what I built. I called Jim to get some center ribs and mounts, when the box arrived it had plans, booms and some delrin venturi's free of charge. Super nice guy and would talk on the phone and answer all my questions. Nippers are good entry level planes for SL. Easy to build and pretty tough. Can be flown on a bunch of engines. Regards, Mike

Duke, I am running OS LA 40's. Mainly because I already had a few and they are cheap at swap meets, and you can still get parts for them. Here is a link to Jim's info http://necn.homestead.com/ThisandThatHome.html                                       

Duke, I am running OS LA 40's. Mainly because I already had a few and they are cheap at swap meets, and you can still get parts for them. Here is a link to Jim's info http://necn.homestead.com/ThisandThatHome.html                                       

There's some good info on his site. Thanks

Duke, you can probably get the LA 40 up to 80 mph.  It will need an oversize venturi, something around an 8/6 prop, and maybe higher nitro like 25%.

Thanks Phil!

I hope your still thankful if it blows the crank!

Duke, The LA .40 will do 80mph no problem. Some of my LA .40's will go 80 or 82mph on 10% with a 9x6 or 9x7. The contests I fly in are 75mph so I use 9x5's or 9x4's with 10%.

           While it's been suggested that the use of the LA .40 is worthy, I must comment on a few things here. The LA .25 will fly 80 mph on a plane like suggested above which is the Nipper which only requires the venturi to be slightly opened. In it's stock configuration using the .265 venturi, it doesn't exceed the speed limit for the North East which is 75mph using a 8x4 prop.  It also flies that plane for 5 minutes with a fuel load of just shy of 2.5 oz's. The LA .40 however which is more than 1.5 oz's heavier also uses about 4 ounces of fuel to do so. Between the weight of the engine and it's fuel load this will have a dramatic change on the way the model flies. I'm not saying it won't work, but why do more with something heavier when something lighter can be substituted? It's also to my understanding that flying at your suggested 80 mph is going to require a fuel shutoff device. This has now clearly taken the beginner portion out of the picture. I've played around with the .40's and quickly resort back to the smaller mills due to turning ability and fuel economy. You need to have a KC-135 flying next to you . I've had several .40's not even make the 4 minute mark. Ken

Duke,
I expect the LA25 could work.  For sport flying, I had an ARF Flite Streak (no fin or LG) with an OS25FP (40FP/LA venturi on suction) on 10-10-10 fuel.  A great dependable setup. One of the veteran combat fliers said it looked about 75 to 80mph, though he didn't put a watch on it.  I have seen LA25's that run as well as the FP25's. 
All the stuff, except appropriate tank, is available from Tower or others.  The ARF streak fuselage needs the nose reinforced -- I bushed the engine mount holes and glassed back to the spar, adding a fillet at the wing root.
(Also that LA25 venturi will turn your LA40 into a decent stunt engine.)
Randy

          Seeing that the Fp.25 and the LA .25 are the staple engine that we do use in the northeast, I can tell you performance wise on Phil's  planes with the same prop they're pretty much equal. Those that I do fly with have Nelson heads however. They do claim zero performance gain which I disagree with due to their engine certainly running stronger than mine. Anytime I used a Nelson plug on a engine, I always seen a increase in rpm's. Regardless of the rpm differences, the Fp tends to burp on the outsides more than the LA does. I often wondered if it was the additional port in the sleeve that maybe causing this. This is a meaningless problem due to it being a very mild one. The one thing I have noted though is that the FP .25 was offered in both ABN and iron piston configuration. I wouldn't suggest the iron piston version to run on a combat plane. Although one of my club members uses these exclusively, a bit more care needs to be paid to this version. The ABN would be a better choice and is much more forgiving.

Many suggestions were offered and one thing I would like to contribute is the use of a plain bearing engine initially. It just makes the learning process much easier due to just not ruining the bearings when you stuff it in the dirt. While some have suggested the use of tanks, I would personally forego that idea as bladder pressure is so much easier to use with less problems overall in the maneuvers and running. Ken

 I'm not saying it won't work, but why do more with something heavier when something lighter can be substituted?  Ken Cook"

One nice thing about speed limit/beginner combat is many different styles of flying can work.
Since the planes have to fly on .018 lines(steel or spectra) a larger, heavier plane can haul larger lines better, especially steel, in windy weather.  Neil Simpson makes a good point that a given size of lines take a certain weight of the plane to keep line tension in the right range.  I think Spectra lines do negate a lot this problem for smaller engines.

But if a 25 plane and a 40 plane have similar wing and span loadings    they can be trimmed to fly equally well, but the larger plane will still have an advantage in the wind.  It's got more momentum(massxvelocity) to punch through gusts.

Hey, Phil has been around a couple of years and has written articles on getting into combat.   Listen to him.