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Author Topic: AMA Slow Combat  (Read 3682 times)

Offline Richard Edwards

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AMA Slow Combat
« on: May 29, 2008, 12:08:06 PM »
What has happened to AMA slow combat I have heard different reports from friends. I had to quit flying combat back in the late 1990's about the same time that Henry Nelson came out with his 36 combat motor I bought two and only used them a few times before having to quit due to ill health, since then I have heard slow combat has about died.
 

Offline dankar

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2008, 03:04:27 PM »
80mph more or less replace this. Any engine as long as it did not exceed 80 mph. Some clubs go for 75 mph.
Dan

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2008, 07:31:56 PM »
AMA Slow became way too expensive.  It was a too frequent case of a total loss per round, chasing knots.  The rules were just terrible, and the enforcement of those was hilariously bad, etc. 

Offline Chad Hill

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2008, 08:10:00 PM »
I remember in the 1970s when slow was flown with Ringmasters, Flite Streaks and Busters, etc., using Enya 35s and ST-C35s on suction. It was a great event.

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 09:06:39 PM »
I remember in the 1970s when slow was flown with Ringmasters, Flite Streaks and Busters, etc., using Enya 35s and ST-C35s on suction. It was a great event.

I'm not certain where you were in the 1970's, but in most of Texas, the planes flown were mostly Streaks (if from a major design), plus mostly purpose-built Streak-like clones, such as the original Mongoose, from the late 1960s until AMA slow became official about 1979 or so.  Other profiles besides Streaks appeared in events where they were required, along with some sort of LG, and sometimes a rule against shaft bearings or Schneurle porting, particularly in the very early 1960s. 

Unless absolutely required by contest rules, Ringmasters were so poor in combat that they simply were never used anywhere I flew, except when the Tomcik brothers were starting in competition, and they used them. 

Offline dave siegler

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2008, 05:06:30 AM »
Slow combat tried to regulate the airframe, motor and fuel system to keep the speed down.  This just caused modelers to get smart and find another way to go fast.

Speed limit set a rule to regulate the lap times, which is what slow comat really wanted to control anyway.  Speed Limit has very simple rules, and no restrictions on engines (except .40 or less) and airframes.  That means simple tough Fast type airplanes can be used with bladders.  Also $40 f2d airframes as well.  Sport type engines will work well.   
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Offline Paul Smith

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The fuel shutoff shut it off.
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2008, 05:53:04 AM »
Slow Combat was a GREEE---ATE event.

It was the most popular event in ALL of modelling in the Great Lakes region before the disasterous flyaway shutoff rule (perhaps needed for FAST) was blindly imposted on Slow. 

The entry level instantly dropped from 33 to ZERO.  It was hard enough to get a suction engines to run on a fleet of combat planes.   But the addition of an operational flyaway shutoff to the system was too much technology for a model with such a short lifespan.

The diehards that we are, Detroit Combat Team continues to carry AMA Slow Combat at our two Sanctioned Contests every year.  Some of us who the loved the event keep the ghost alive by cobbling together a few planes with the mandatory shutoffs.

This May we had THREE entries, resulting on ONE good match in which two shutoff-equipped models were made to work.

Next year : F2d gets The Plague.

-----------------------------

Speed Limit Combat is a technical poker game. 
As Ed Brzys said to The Ohio Highway Patrol: "I know the sign says 70 MPH, but what can I really do?"
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 10:51:26 AM by ama21835 »
Paul Smith

Offline Chad Hill

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2008, 12:59:22 PM »
I'm not certain where you were in the 1970's, but in most of Texas, the planes flown were mostly Streaks (if from a major design), plus mostly purpose-built Streak-like clones, such as the original Mongoose, from the late 1960s until AMA slow became official about 1979 or so.  Other profiles besides Streaks appeared in events where they were required, along with some sort of LG, and sometimes a rule against shaft bearings or Schneurle porting, particularly in the very early 1960s. 

Unless absolutely required by contest rules, Ringmasters were so poor in combat that they simply were never used anywhere I flew, except when the Tomcik brothers were starting in competition, and they used them. 

Well, I guess you didn't fly much in the Midwest then...

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2008, 02:15:48 PM »
Amarillo is as far north, I think, as I ever went to any contest before the 1990's.  I think it's farther north than OK City, as well as a lot longer drive from here.  Texans always took their combat events fairly seriously, though. 

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 09:41:25 AM »
What I am about to suggest will probably anger some die hards and others will just laugh it off but..... maybe we need to stop taking combat so seriously and start flying it for FUN. Planes that must look like real planes that flew in the military and engaged in combat, you know the profile war birds things. There should be penalties for hitting another plane instead of the streamer. Pick one engine...Fox 35....maybe and a one plane rule that makes it so that only one plane per contestant can be flown, It must be repaired in the pits for each flight.
Well there it is.
Larry

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 10:04:20 AM »
From time to time, on a local basis, that type thing has been done.  The several Midwest Warbird kits in the 46-49" span sizes were based on planes flown in such an event, but not with Fox 35 Stunt engines.  Every combat option that required Fox 35s was pretty terrible, until shorter 52' lines were used.  The Mearses, in Lubbock, occasionally fly a warbird event, but engine choice is wide open because speeds are limited to 70 mph (I think it's 70). 

I think that one of the most useful aspects of requiring planes to look like and be painted like warbirds is to use the event's planes choreographed in a "show" for the public on an Open House Day. 


Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 12:35:44 PM »
We currently make the Sig Fokker D VII and plan to make the SPAD-7. These were originally meant for a slow combat type contest. I think that it would be great fun to watch and to fly.
Larry

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 12:52:35 PM »
They actually had biplane combat in Chicago in the 80's.  I flew it once with a plane that was loaned out to help build up the entry level.  While a nice theory, there aren't many people who will build a Sig SPAD or D-7 and submit it to destruction.

In Michigan in the late 60's, warbird combat was the standard form of Slow.  It was popular until the event became AMA-ized and most of the limitiations were whittled away, resulting in a product that was fun, but not much slower than Fast.

In the late 80's Fox 35 Stunt combat was big around here.  It was effectively quashed by the AMA broardbrush rule demanding flyaway shutoffs in any event without a speed 75-MPH speed limit.   Ironically, the Fox 35 effectively ensured a 75-MPH limit without the need to perform timings.
Paul Smith

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 03:22:57 PM »
I really think that flying biplanes for such an Open House field day show would be a big hit, and I think I will build a Spad (although I'd prefer an SE-5), for the fun of flying it, but the amount of work (two wings!) getting it in the air would keep me from entering a combat match.  But as per my prior comment, the pilots should follow a script, and there should be an announcer, telling the spectators that it's a duel with models and streamers, over what insult or misbehavior or whatever that a nasty "Hun" has committed, to be made right by a Hat in the Ring American volunteer, etc. 

The pilots only need appropriate goggles (which can be worn Desert Fox style, on a hat), neck scarves, and distinctively colored shirts, not really flying suits or anything to simulate those. 

Offline phil c

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 09:25:21 AM »
Gil Reedy and I did an air show demo of combat.  It was great fun and a real crowd pleaser when my Wildcat managed to get a cut on his slow plane.  We just did nice and easy open maneuvers, not too coreographed, talking to each other so there were no surprises.

Speed limit combat, with local rules for the speed, usually 2 laps in the 6.8-7.3 second range without a streamer, is easy to run and fun to fly.  If you make it a multi-round contest with competition primarily for cuts, and not an elimination tournament where you have to win every match, midairs go way,way down.  I flew and placed in six contests a few years ago with one plane, something like thirty matches.  That makes building a Warbird more or less practical, but still the lightest plane has a big advantage, so they get slimmed down into cartoon P-40's and Zero's that don't look anything like a scale model.
phil Cartier

Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 11:35:03 AM »
What's wrong with flying combat with biplanes or classic warbirds.  For me at least, it matters not a whit.  I total stunt planes that took much more time to build while flying alone in a circle.  Totalling one that took a quarter of that time to build should hurt much less!  I do agree, however, that keeping the plane true to the design and somehow ensuring that the spirit as well as the letter of the law is followed is mandantory.  WW1 or 2 could be a whole lot of fun and this old fart could do it.

Bob
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Offline phil c

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 05:31:00 PM »
I think most of the folks who fly a lot of combat have found that the fun part is actually flying matches- chasing, turning, fakes, etc.  and hopefully not trashing too much equipment.  The better the planes fly, the more fun it is.  So flying semi-scale warbirds, bi-planes, etc. doesn't do much for the fun of flying combat.  It just adds to the work.

Flying planes with full profile fuselages and some nice decoration does add a lot to spectator appeal for demos.  I've got plans for several designs that can be built with plug-in wings for easy repairs and use better fuse construction techniques for better crash resistance.  At somewhat lower speeds- 60 mph instead of 52 like stunt or 70+ for speed limit combat they fly well and can put on a heck of a show.
phil Cartier

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 07:57:31 AM »
Hi Phil,  I think you hit the nail on the head for a combat event.  Brodak has the warbird series in which the planes are all about the same size.  With a speed limit of 60 mph I think they would work.  One plane per contest per contest like the old WAM rules used to be.  At my  first combat contest back in the 50's watched the club members rebuild a plane to keep a club member in contention.  I think back then we worried more about the streamer than going after the plane like some do.  Also if we had a second combat plane it was incase we didn't like the way the first one flew.  DOC Holliday
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Offline phil c

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2008, 02:49:27 PM »
I'd never fly a competition with one of those planes(the 48 in. ones), and certainly not with only one plane.  Too much work for the number of crashes.  But flying a demo with another experienced flyer would be fun.  I can build a plug-in wing foamy version with no flaps that will outfly any of the Brodak kits and probably bounce at least once at 60 mph.
phil Cartier

Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2008, 05:16:40 PM »
I'm going to get back into this yet.  All I need is the time!  Phil, you are getting me motivated just like Doc Holliday did.  I have started on the fuse of the Gotcha Streak.  And if I get the time will start on that Hellcat when the Streak is finished.  Got a couple of BB Fox 40s for them.  One is a new case and one is the old case.  Should make them fly well.

Bob
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Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 07:49:09 AM »
           I'm with you Doc. 60 mph should cut down on the number of accidental crashes and I think that if there is a one plane per contestant rule there will be less intensional crashes, add to that the extra work to build the plane and pilots will tend to be more careful. I think that a two loss to eliminate rule would be helpful too. I like it....a good club event.
          After all combat was meant to simulate the real thing when it was started and this would bring a lot more new flyer's back to control line combat.
Larry

Offline phil c

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Re: AMA Slow Combat
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2008, 04:00:17 PM »
We went with 70 mph(7.3 sec/2 laps) for a reason- much slower and the planes have a really hard time handling any sort of wind at all.  Couple 60 ft.018 lines with a bit of breeze and a slightly off setting on the engine and you are asking for trouble.  Planes free-flight every where.  70 mph is also what a decent Fox 35 will do with a 400 inch airplane, if somebody wants to fly something like that.
phil Cartier


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