I think that most people would have to agree. Our beloved event #328, AMA Fast Combat is pretty near grave yard dead.

There are only a few sparsely-attended local contests per year and even the mighty AMA Nats can only draw a token few flyers to take home the plaques.

Meanwhile, F2D, with a plethora of rules and the very expensive 2-plane rule, is thriving.

The idea of using an all-out pressurized high nitro 36 goes back to 1950 or maybe even earlier. By 1970 (40 years ago), the majority of combat flyers had already decided that the event was out of hand and switched to Slow.

So here's my proposal: EVENT 328 - AMA Combat.

All equipment rules (airplane, engine, muffler, shutoff, lines, handle, wrist strap, and streamer) will use FAI F2D rules. Only one set of equipment per match.

The conduct of the match will remain the same.
Start engine on the clock, kill wins, 100 points per cut, one point per second, five minute match.

Let's face it. Fox Mark VI & VII and Nelson 36's aren't on the market anymore. Those who bought them have had 15-20 years to get their money's worth.

The hard core Rat flyers finally gave up the 40 and downsized to 15's. Better to face current realities and preserve old fashioned KILL COMBAT than to sit back and let it fade away. Racing downisized to preserve 3-up racing. Likewise, we could change Fast over to F2D equipment and preserve KILL COMBAT.

By using the same equipment in Fast & F2D, we would reduce the variety of stuff we need to carry to compete.  F2D stuff is easily purchased today.  Old style Fast comabt equipment is only sold in the aftermarket  or brought out from the personal hoards of the older combat flyers, some of whom are aging rapidly.

Thanks for the support.  It's been all positive thus far.

If I pull the trigger it, it will be the new revised AMA Combat event.

If anybody still wants to use up the old 36-powered planes, they can have a local "nostalgia" or "old time" event.  

Up 'til now, I didn't take a position on the fuel.  I was thinking about allowing the revised "fast" event to use ANY fuel.   But that would make guys have to jockey head clearance and maybe get different props and mayhe blow up or wear down good F2D engines.  So I think I'll include F2D fuel in the "just like F2D" list.  

At a typical double elim F2d contest you need about ten decent airplanes to be assured of going the distance.  With only one plane per match and the "kill ends" rule, you should be able to get by with only 2 or 3 models.  However, the models in the AMA event might need to be trimmed to a higher standard to get the quick kill.

You might reconsider the additional vs. instead-of.  If we have a "Nostalgia" event, we'd want to be covered by AMA insurance. 

Howard, what would you consider about a "Nostalgia" event that would cause it to NOT be covered by AMA insurance?

Bill

Good, Howard will be relieved.

I went ahead and submitted the proposal.  It should be AMA's site soon.  Now it's in the hands of the 11-man Combat Contest Board.

I suggest that this be added as a new event and leave 328 alone. Perhaps this should be "328A" much like the FF guys gave done with several of their rulebook events. I think a lot of confusion could be avoided this way since those wanting to fly 328 would still have a fixed set of rules. Tying one event to the rules of another creates a lot of unintended consequences. That was the reason we went to the "Unified Rules" concept many, many years ago in the AMA rule book.

BTW, I like the idea of 15 Fast (i.e., 328A or whatever).

Bill

The Detroit Combat Team & Strathmoor Model Club have religiously kept events #328 and #329 on their event menus for their spring and fall contests at Rouge Park.   Up until the last two years, at least 2 or 3 die hards have put up a match or two to keep the events alive.

But this year, they trickled down to where we couldn't even get two guys to fly a match.  These rule changes will allow the events to continue, using the today's available equipment.

By the way, there's also a rules proposal (NOT BY ME) to keep Slow alive by scrapping out the old equipment and slipping in the Speed Limit rules.  While I DID NOT auther it, I do support it.

If this passes, the event menu with be:

1/2A (regular 35' or high performance 42')
Event 328 - Fast Combat (with F2D equipment)
Event 329 - Slow Combat (with a 75 MPH speed limit)
F2D - whatever rules the CIAM gives us.

I have in mind to put in a proposal the delete the old "low performance 35' lines" in 1/2A and let The Rule Book just carry the one set of rules we actually use.   What do you think of that?

By the way, there's also a rules proposal (NOT BY ME) to keep Slow alive by scrapping out the old equipment and slipping in the Speed Limit rules.  While I DID NOT auther it, I do support it.

Funny, the current combat rules already cover Speed Limit combat.  There is a whole paragraph on how to enforce the speed limit in order to avoid engine shutoffs.  The rest of it, matching, scoring, etc. can and is easily covered in local rules spelled out in the contest advertising if you don't want to use the 328 rules.  The Northwest crew like to go a little faster and use shutoffs, which is fine.  Actually shutoffs are not a bad idea, now that they are pretty well worked out, in sub 75mph combat for a minor safety improvement and to save a few planes.

As far as Half A goes, who cares.  The biggest draw for Half A around here is cheaper planes that survive crashes better, but since they are only going 75mph or so, the damage rate isn't much different between Half A and Speed Limit.  We usually run "sport Half A" and allow plain bearing .061's and usually Spectra lines for ease of use and the lower hassle factor.  The guys who insist on running the highdollar engines put the same 4-1/4 in. rubber ducky props as the 061's and things are very equal and fun.

Dont the rules currently allow .15 size planes and engines?   Why would this be any different than listing a displacement size limit for your contest?   With almost no contests offering any event other than speed limited within 500 miles of me you know what event I will be flying.   
Bob

The current rules allow engines up to .36, which includes 15's.
The proposed new rule will allow engines up .1525, which does not include 36's.

Under the current rules there were only two reported contests in 2009, with at nationwide total of 14 entries.

There is an abundance of F2D equipment around, and I have a theory that there are more 14 people who will be willing to fly one-plane "KILL" combat with this equipment.   Many people (myself included), would like the chance to fly in a contests that only consume 2 or 3 models, comparted to all-out F2d meets that can use up 8-to-10 models.

Yes, could use an F2d (on 60' lines) against Nelson 36's under the existing rules. 
How good do you really think that would work?

Bob, the event that Paul is suggesting HAS been flown ... a LOT! We've flown it in Texas for many years, initially as a vehicle to give the guys who fly F2D a chance to build and maintain familiarity with their equipment, but eventually a popular event in its own right.

And, oh by the way, please check out the name of the forum where this was posted:

stunthanger.com > Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing > Combat

Seems like this is a very appropriate place for it. Perhaps others as well, but certainly here.

Regards,

Bill

PS: a public word of thanks to you for your monetary contribution to the F2 Team.

The intent of the intent of the rule is not make yet anther local special event.

The intent is to make traditional National Championship Combat event something that a large number of people fly.

Back in 1957, 250 people entered AMA Combat at The Nats.  In those days, the 36-size engines had less power than modern F2D engines.  In the broad 60-year history of combat, the current 15 is pretty much in line with the HP that has been used.  The only except being the Fox Mark VI & VII, and Nelson 36, which triggered flyaways, shutoffs, and drastic drop in participation.

I attended the 2007, 2008, and 2009 Nats.  Reports listed names of 6, 7, or 8 entries, which included no-shows who prepaid their entry fees.  It also included a few veteran combat fliers who entered stunt or some other event a just borrowed one plane to put in an appearance.   I added to the total by putting a shutoff on an old plane and taking my beating.  There were some who entered because there was a sure Nats plaque to be claimed.   At best, there were 1, 2, or 3 serious entries per year.

Anyway, the matter is in the hands of the Contest Board.  If they agree with my position, they will approve the change.  If not, they won't.   

AMA Fast Combat as it exists, relies on engines that have not been produced in two decades or so. How can "America's combat event" do anything but die a slow death if would-be newcomers can't even buy an engine?

If the ruling junta had just gone from .018" to .021" lines when the Nelsons and Mark VII's kicked up the speed, they might have fended off the final coupe de grace in the form of flyaway shutoffs.  I doubt that the same "leaders" will buy into longer lines. The people who run Speed and Racing have the common sense to up size the lines when speeds increase, they've even made it automatic. But Fast Combat guys wanted to keep the .018's and just go fast. What they got is an extinct event.

I think 100 MPH on 52' lines will provide the same quickness as 120 or so on 60's, and a whole lot less destruction when things go badly.

To those who disagree with my proposal I ask:
"Since the 2010 AMA Nats will be run according to CURRENT rules, will you be entering and flying?"

You can still strat your own engine is all events, but you take a beating on air time in some cases.

At The Nats, starting your own engune has become MANDATORY when there aren't enough people on site to fly, pit, and judge a match.

------------

More I think about it, there was a rule that confined the pilot to centre, maybe 40-45 years ago.  I hated it, too.  It was a "nice" rule if you travelled with a great pit crew and/or had perfect engines that anybody could start on the first flip.  Otherwise, it was death sentence.

Trust me, Doc, it's over.  It's safe to come back.  Get yourself a couple Nelsons and a box a Viko-Fasts and some shutoffs and help keep 36-Fast "alive".

Wellll,

The Foxes listed for $100 and the Nelson 36 was HARD-priced at $275, which is to say, Henry sold them direct and didn't give an inch.  Like you, I predicted that the cost would kill the event.  The opposite proved to be true. Guys bought $275 Nelsons in droves.  The out-of-control power and speed, coupled with the refusal to upsize the lines is what did in Fast & Slow.

A FORA 2008, the current F2D engine of choice sells for $240 and you need TWO to fly a match.  We have 10 entries at local F2D contests and there were 37 at the 2009 TT in Detroit.   There are plenty of F2D planes and engines in the country.

If my proposal fails, it will not be due the cost and availablity of the equipment.

Just a comment... by my count there are less than 60 guys in the entire country flying F2D... maybe less than 40.  I am not sure that a rule change that uses basically the same equipment as F2D will do much to revive the AMA event since there are only 60 possible participants to pull from.   Heck if 10% of them come to the NATS that will be 6 flyers...  But that said it will not kill it either (as its already on its deathbed) and may result in greater numbers flying both events someday in the future. 
Bob

Actually over the past 3-4 years I have purchased 4 Fox Combat engines all for less than $75 each.  Two MKIII, one MKIV and one MKVI ABC all new or very close to new off Ebay... and built a dozen foamy's.   There are Fox engines available every week.   So getting equipment isnt all that hard... finding someone interested in flying is another story.   
Good luck on this though... but again I do not see any improvement in getting participation when a beginner will have to shell out over $1000 for equipment to complete.... I have a daughter in college, a mortgage to pay, three cars to keep running and a $50K job to try and cover all that...
I'm sticking with speed limited... and hoping that doesnt become an official event as every time an event is added to the AMA rule book it seems to put it on the endangered species list....
Bob

Getting old Foxes so you can enter Fast Combat and take beating is no big thing.

If you want to have a chance to win a match, get some Nelsons.