Author Topic: Nobler - kit bashing what classic ships could you build? (Read 5527 times)

Dennis Toth · « **on:** February 03, 2011, 05:44:37 PM »

Guys,
Just wondering from a simple Nobler what Classic ships could be built with a little creative kit bashing?

Best, DennisT

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2011, 06:32:08 PM »

Almost any of them! Seriously, many a classic is a disguised Nobler - in an era when Originality and Realism scores mattered it was easier to disguise the generic Nobler wing than it was to hide say a T-Bird. One of my favorites was a local guy who made his Noblers with the nose & tails lengthened 1" and a flat-top with no turtle deck. Used the stock wing and tail units..

Here's two of mine - Nobler wings except for the tips, everything else diffferent...

EddyR · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2011, 02:43:45 PM »

Tucker is the same wing
Ed

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2011, 03:36:44 PM »

Ed, The Tucker wing was similar, but as I recall it has 2" asymmetry.

Dennis,
Jim Kostecky has a "Spirit of America" at the 2nd St Louis Team Trials and I had the privilege to fly it. It was a great flying airplane and was not a Nobler. I think you were at the TT.

Unfortunately Jim's "Spirit of America" was not published and no details are available. I would build one in Jim's honor.

(Pictures compliments of Shultzie from an earlier post.

James Mills · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2011, 04:28:09 PM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on February 04, 2011, 03:36:44 PM

Ed, The Tucker wing was similar, but as I recall it has 2" asymmetry.

Dennis,
Jim Kostecky has a "Spirit of America" at the 2nd St Louis Team Trials and I had the privilege to fly it. It was a great flying airplane and was not a Nobler. I think you were at the TT.

Unfortunately Jim's "Spirit of America" was not published and no details are available. I would build one in Jim's honor.

(Pictures compliments of Shultzie from an earlier post.

Tom,
Double check this with Bob Hunt but I think Bob told me when I was building my Formula S that his '69 plane was a Formula S with traditional gear (meaning the only thing changed was tri-gear to wing gear). Might be worth checking.
James

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2011, 05:53:22 PM »

James,
I talk very often to Bob. We have both admired the "Spirit of America', but there is no way to really prove that it is basically the same airplane. I certainly enjoyed flying the airplane after the TT. Jim commented that "The Judge flew it better than he did." It was a wonderful compliment, but it was not true. Jim was a great guy, and I will always remember him.

Bill Little · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2011, 10:34:11 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on February 04, 2011, 07:12:02 PM

The Chiszler is a classic example of a modified Nobler. It is an available kit as well. If you obtain the "Classic Era Construction Drawings" from PAMPA supplies, you will see dozens of Noblers in diguise. Just check out the basic wing and go from there.

Like the Chief said above. Fast Richard notes in the article that you can just use a GB Nobler wing in the Chizler.

The AMA Special (Grondal Nobler) was built using a box stock GB Nobler kit with adjustments to the tips, fuselage blocks and rudder/fin, elev/stab shapes. A Veco Bubble canopy was added.

Mr Grondal told me that himself, and the original Tupker plans back it up. That model won the first two "official" FAI World Championships. Pretty good flying "Nobler".

Big Bear

EddyR · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2011, 07:07:29 AM »

I saw Jim's Spirt many times and never thought it was anything like a Nobler. My regional office was in Buffalo and I went to Jim's house many times. He used a complex rib patters that was very labor intensive. He went all out with detail. He came to Binghamton to see family and flew with Dave Merrithew and my self in the late 50's.
Ed

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2011, 03:13:44 PM »

Just to keep things straight, Kostecky's "America" (not "Spirit of..") had nothing in common with a Nobler - so it really does not fit in this thread.

If you wanted to duplicate the America: take Formula S outlines except for cowl and morph them with Talon wing construction, then leave off the jet intakes & exhaust then leave off the Talon's wheel pants and you are awfully close. The FS stab fairings are there but the fin is just a little different than FS or Talon.

Always liked those spears on the tail..!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #9 on:** February 07, 2011, 02:54:37 PM »

Dennis,

In the pictures you were so young.

Bill Little · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2011, 03:18:02 PM »

Curious!

Did Jim Silhavy's .35 size Gypsy have anything to do with the Nobler? I recall Jim flying the Noblers before the Gypsy.

Thanks
Big Bear

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »

Sorry Dennis,
Hunt and I always called Jim's airplane "Spirit of America". The pictures show "America". Hey I get confused too.

And yes, the wing has nothing in common with the Nobler. Externally it has the look of an I beamer, but internally Jim used different construction, like his Talon. Although it is similar to the "Formula S", I still feel that we do not have enough details to "kit bash" the "S" and caller the"America".

All I can say is that I had the privilege to fly the "America" and it flew great.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #12 on:** February 07, 2011, 04:35:08 PM »

Tom
I have to agree with ya. If you did what I described I am sure it would be very close - but there is no way to absoulutely document it. I thoght America was a gorgeus bird.

Randy P - THANKS for the observation. To put it in persspective that pix is about 19 years prior to your "Easter 1988" pix. (ugh!)

Back to Tom:
OK I am going to get slapped here, but you probably have the perspective to affirm or discount this: I was always under the assumption that most of the classic era GSCB birds were tricked out Noblers...?

EddyR · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2011, 05:42:37 PM »

When I mentioned the Spirt I meant the "America" not "Spirt of America". I just laid a 57 Nobler wing over my Tucker and the wing span is almost the same . The Tucker is 1/4" longer on the inboard side. One thing that is very different is the Tucker wing is 1/2"+ wider at the tips. The Nobler has a lot more taper. The tucker is more like a 52 Nobler wing. Both are very thin at the wingtip. I think one reason Jim didn't use the I/beam wing method as he wanted a larger leading edge and back then when people built I/beams is they used small leading edges and they mounted the ribs so they were touching and this gave a very pointed leading edge. I learned long ago to use a 1"x1/4" leading edge for I beams and to keep the ribs 3/16" apart at the center and touching at the tips and this gave a more rounded leading edge. Juno and the USA-1 are built this way. Don Ogren's Saturn I/beam used a 1/2" square leading edge. Jim did build some I/beam planes in the 50's.
Ed

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2011, 09:30:31 PM »

Dennis,

"Back to Tom:
OK I am going to get slapped here, but you probably have the perspective to affirm or discount this: I was always under the assumption that most of the classic era GSCB birds were tricked out Noblers...?

I can't speak for all the GSCB airplanes. But I can for several.

The "JD Falcon" has only 1" L.E. sweep back and a different airfoil section. I do know that there were several "Falcons" that had a Nobler wing, but John D'Ottavio's were not Noblers. Nor were any that were built from the horribly inaccurate M.A.N plans. John's "Jerseyan" also had 1" L.E. sweep, a different airfoil, and less chord than the "Falcon".

Ed Elasick's "Impala" was closest to the Nobler, but the airfoil was definitely thicker.

My own "Clipper", that has not been published, had about 1.25" sweep in the L.E. and the airfoils was not even close to the Nobler. The "Clipper" was a great flying.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #15 on:** February 16, 2011, 06:53:58 PM »

Artie Meyers of Hemstead, NY won Sr. at the 1960 Dallas Nats. His airplane, called the "New Yorker", used a stock Green box Nobler wing, including the tips and flaps. I had the airplane in my possession until I moved to Texas, and I have the pencil drawings. It is on my list of future magazine articles to write,

Unfortunately we lost Artie about 20 years ago.

Bill Little · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2011, 12:04:43 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on February 16, 2011, 06:53:58 PM

Artie Meyers of Hemstead, NY won Sr. at the 1960 Dallas Nats. His airplane, called the "New Yorker", used a stock Green box Nobler wing, including the tips and flaps. I had the airplane in my possession until I moved to Texas, and I have the pencil drawings. It is on my list of future magazine articles to write,

Unfortunately we lost Artie about 20 years ago.

Hi Tom,

I remember you relating the story of the "New Yorker" and the "Jerseyian".

Bill

Annette Elmore · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2011, 10:44:09 AM »

I've heard that Tom Jolley's Midget Mustang was a basically modified Nobler.....

Can't find a pic tho !

Annette

John Hammonds · « **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2011, 09:29:49 AM »

Hi Annette,
Yes I heard that as well, Never saw it in the flesh though but here's a scan of a photo from the "Controlline Aeromodeller".

[EDIT] Added text from the article in case anyone is interested... [/EDIT]

TTFN
John.

Bill Little · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2011, 04:09:04 PM »

I think we can safely say that between 1957 and the mid-1960's, around the world, there have been about as many "modified" Noblers as there were "stock" Noblers.

Big Bear

john e. holliday · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2011, 07:36:42 AM »

Tom Jolly should be number one in hiding a Nobler wing in his design. Were there ever plans for the plane?

proparc · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:53:49 AM »

Lets not forget the "Flushing Meadows Gang" early work was heavily Nobler influenced. They would of course, break away and start to make stunt history, but that's another story.

Annette Elmore · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:57:07 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on February 27, 2011, 07:36:42 AM

Tom Jolly should be number one in hiding a Nobler wing in his design. Were there ever plans for the plane?

Tom Dixon has the plan:

Midget Mustang - 54" semi-scale by England's Tom Jolley. Use a .40 or .46. M.A.N. 10/68. $10.00

Annette

RandySmith · « **Reply #23 on:** January 11, 2012, 04:08:45 PM »

Always liked those spears on the tail..!

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

LOL and the grab everything you pass by....grrrr

If you use spears..make them very strong :-)

Randy

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #24 on:** January 11, 2012, 07:11:28 PM »

Quote from: Ed Ruane on February 04, 2011, 02:43:45 PM

Tucker is the same wing
Ed

Ed-

I have the remains of a Tucker Spl. wing that I used to fly in an improvised profile. I remembered it as having a VERY different (thicker, blunter) wing section. So I just checked to verify. Then I looked up the Nobler in Tom Morris' OTS collection and the Tucker in his Classics. They really are quite different.

SK

Geoff Goodworth · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2012, 11:26:51 PM »

From a letter Tom Jolley sent to me about his Midget Mustang—

'The fact that Ian Peacock said it was built from a kit is only partially correct. I sold the complete package to him and sometime later he put his thumb through the fuselage side & discovered the printed parts number inside along with the fact that the die-cut lightening panels had been glued in place. Some parts of the kit were used, others were discarded or changed.'

Tom used parts from a Top Flite kit because he crashed his main model only weeks before the British Nats in 1967 and that was the quickest way that he could build a replacement.

I have a copy of the MAN plan that was drawn—ink on linen—by Tom and there are many differences between the Midget Mustang and Pat Johnston's plan of the '57 Nobler drawing for the RSM kit. I don't have an original '57 Nobler plan so I am trusting that the Pat's drawing and the RSM kit are correct.

Shultzie · « **Reply #26 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:48:44 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on February 07, 2011, 09:30:31 PM

Dennis,

"Back to Tom:
OK I am going to get slapped here, but you probably have the perspective to affirm or discount this: I was always under the assumption that most of the classic era GSCB birds were tricked out Noblers...?

I can't speak for all the GSCB airplanes. But I can for several.

The "JD Falcon" has only 1" L.E. sweep back and a different airfoil section. I do know that there were several "Falcons" that had a Nobler wing, but John D'Ottavio's were not Noblers. Nor were any that were built from the horribly inaccurate M.A.N plans. John's "Jerseyan" also had 1" L.E. sweep, a different airfoil, and less chord than the "Falcon".

Ed Elasick's "Impala" was closest to the Nobler, but the airfoil was definitely thicker.

My own "Clipper", that has not been published, had about 1.25" sweep in the L.E. and the airfoils was not even close to the Nobler. The "Clipper" was a great flying.

WOW!
Just the other day... (I made a rescan of one of my FAVORITE ALL TIME PHOTOS that I shot of Big John...giving stunt judging lessons to the newbee bunch of captive NAVAL OFFICERS!

also this beautiful model of Frank's at that same nats...TAIN'T NO MODIFIED "GOBLER!"

Shultzie · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:53:27 AM »

While we are on the thought that all of our CLPA stunt rides were born via the mighty NOBLER..
Check out these rescans of my photos of Gerald Phelp's beautiful stunt rides...from the late 68-69 days gone by so quickly?
Where the

is Gerry today?

Shultzie · « **Reply #28 on:** January 12, 2012, 03:46:36 PM »

OK! ENOUGH OF NOBLER-GOBBLER BASHING...
HERE IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE A BEAUTIFUL GIESKE GOBBLER WITH WIGGLEEE STABILATOR TAIL FEATHERS...that I heard that Bob Gieske thought had some real potential?

wwwarbird · « **Reply #29 on:** January 12, 2012, 04:02:19 PM »

Not a Classic, but here's what I did with one a few years ago...

(Started with a stock ARF Nobler wing, whacked the tips off and added new carved ones, and then scratchbuilt everything else. All moments are stock Nobler but the flaps, stab and elevator all have more area.)

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #30 on:** January 12, 2012, 06:37:25 PM »

Wayne,, where is the camo,, really orange and white,, where was that hiding on a basketball court

seriously I love that one,

Bill Little · « **Reply #31 on:** January 12, 2012, 08:03:39 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on January 12, 2012, 04:02:19 PM

Not a Classic, but here's what I did with one a few years ago...

That's a REALLY nice looking Nobler, Wayne!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

wwwarbird · « **Reply #32 on:** January 12, 2012, 08:44:13 PM »

Actually one of my next projects, maybe the next, is to bash another ARF Nobler kit that I've got sitting on the shelf. I've got most of the mods figured out and what I want it to look like, I've just gotta get at it. Whenever I do get there it will end up looking about as much like a Nobler as the Sukhoi does.

And guess what Mark, it'll be camo!

proparc · « **Reply #33 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:22:05 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on January 12, 2012, 04:02:19 PM

Not a Classic, but here's what I did with one a few years ago...

(Started with a stock ARF Nobler wing, whacked the tips off and added new carved ones, and then scratchbuilt everything else. All moments are stock Nobler but the flaps, stab and elevator all have more area.)

Warbird, (I don't know your real name-hey, it could actually be Warbird). The first time I saw your Yak, I thought, (yes, I have thoughts!!) if this isn't a plane for a magazine article, I don't know what is.

You have got on top of a lot of tricky building techniques to make this plane happen. I for one, would really like to see a construction article, or build thread on this ship. Usually, planes like this tend to be in the bigger 60 sizes and consequently, somewhat less accessible.

You’ve got it down in the 40 class size, with the same top-notch workmanship as seen on the larger jobs. I strongly feel this ship is worthy of closer attention.

And because I have connections at the White House, I can compel you to do a construction article. Alright-alright, I don’t have any connections-I don’t have squat!! But maybe you would consider it. That was so humbling. $:-\$

Bill Little · « **Reply #34 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:39:40 PM »

Quote from: proparc on January 13, 2012, 02:22:05 PM

Warbird, (I don't know your real name-hey, it could actually be Warbird).

Hey, Milt, check the end of each of Warbird's posts. In his signature is his name (Wayne Wiley), location and AMA number1

(lots of guys do that)

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM