Author Topic: New Classic Build (Read 5589 times)

Bill Little · « **on:** March 29, 2010, 06:06:27 PM »

Hi All,

I have started a new Classic plane. Maybe it will make the magazine this year!

This is the parts needed to get started.

Big Bear

Matt Colan · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:14:58 PM »

Let me take a guess at what it is. It's obviously a foam wing

and it's also a profile. All funny things aside, it's obviously an I-beam, could it be an Airon???

The only reason I would know is because on the template it says Airon.

Am I right?

Howard Rush · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:32:56 PM »

Note also the picture caption.

I doubt its profility.

Bill Little · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2010, 01:09:27 AM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on March 29, 2010, 06:14:58 PM

Let me take a guess at what it is. It's obviously a foam wing and it's also a profile. All funny things aside, it's obviously an I-beam, could it be an Airon???

The only reason I would know is because on the template it says Airon.

Am I right?

Hi Matt,

Yep, you're correct. Howard cheated!

It has been discussed before, and I don't *think* I will be posting a lot of build pictures in case it does get a chance to get published. Jim Vornholt has been a very big help so far, along with Allen Brickhaus.

Power will be an Aero Tiger 36, Tom Morris controls, and color scheme will be as close as possible to Jim's NATS Junior winner of 1961.

Big Bear

Airacobra · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2010, 07:36:57 AM »

Bill, good to see the project is well under way. I look forward to seeing your progress on a very cool bird.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:55:17 PM »

Lesee, the first pix with everything kitted was posted TWO days ago. In I-Beam time, that means you must be about ready to cover by now???

Keep the pix flowing Mongo!

wwwarbird · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2010, 10:21:04 PM »

Does anyone have a pic of a finished one? I've never heard of this one.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2010, 07:04:02 PM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on March 31, 2010, 10:21:04 PM

Does anyone have a pic of a finished one? I've never heard of this one.

Not exactly a picture but this 3 view appeared a long time ago in a magazine far far away...

wwwarbird · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2010, 07:41:36 PM »

Thanks Dennis. It's a pretty cool looker, I could see it being called "Samurai".

Matt Colan · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2010, 05:39:36 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on April 02, 2010, 07:04:02 PM

Not exactly a picture but this 3 view appeared a long time ago in a magazine far far away...

That's a strange airfoil?!?

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2010, 08:12:33 AM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on April 03, 2010, 05:39:36 AM

That's a strange airfoil?!?

YUP! I've always thought it an odd duck. However, Bernie Ash's flying buddy, Jack Sheeks, insists that it flew very well, and Jack used this 'foil in his Fw-190 of roughly the same time frame.

Still, given its an I-Beam I would be sorely tempted to use a different rib template!

Airon surely takes the "classic" look to extremes. That fuselage starts with that big cowl and then tapers straight back to a point. I really like the bubble canopy instead of the turtle deack too - looks a lot cleaner. Obviously a low rider with dramatic wheelpants. Overall I think Airon has a lot of the same styling cues as the twin-boom LaDonna: same wing shape, remarkably similar in the side view considering LD is a boomer. Of course the 3/4 views would present a lot differently...

Bill Little · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2010, 05:30:32 PM »

Hi All,

I am at my youngest son's house for Easter, so the plane is on the bench at home. It is set for me to rib it when I get home. That will probably take me a day to get done, but I am thinking about using removable LG (Bob Hunt style) so I might have to take a day and a half tp get it ribbed.

Denny, after that it will only be about 2 days until it IS covered. Thing really slowed down with me leaving town.

The 3 view doesn't *exactly* match Jim's plane (he built the first one, then Bernie built a carbon copy)

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2010, 07:54:04 PM »

BTW: Jim has never heard of *Bill Dean*, and didn't have a clue as to where that 3 view came from. The airfoil is NOT like shown on the 3 view. It is, as Denny said, almost identical to the Sheeks FW-190 aitrfoil, and Jack also told me that he basically used the Airon airfoil for the FW-190, also. Jack's FW-190 has a longer root chord, though.

It is 52" WS, and I want to keep it in the high 30oz. to low 40 oz. range. I think 38-39 should be real good for its wing area (~520 sq. in). The tips of all the flying surfaces were also not so sharply pointed according to Jim, and his drawings.

Big Bear

Randy Powell · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2010, 12:10:11 AM »

I suspect you won't use the 5 degree offset on the engine either.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2010, 07:01:06 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on April 04, 2010, 12:10:11 AM

I suspect you won't use the 5 degree offset on the engine either.

...maybe not, but I'll bet he'll use the 30 coats of brushed Testor's blue paint.

Les McDonald · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2010, 10:05:36 AM »

Some how I'm thinking the use of .018 lines could be the result of "thirty coats of Testors blue paint and 5 degrees of engine offset".
That's alot to ask from a Fox .35.
I would "evaluate" these items and cheat a bit. I'm also hard pressed to envision "good corners" with that airfoil.
It is a very cool looking plane so this will be an interesting thread to follow. Good Luck and keep us posted.

Les McDonald

Bill Little · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2010, 10:36:00 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on April 04, 2010, 07:01:06 AM

...maybe not, but I'll bet he'll use the 30 coats of brushed Testor's blue paint.

Hi Denny,

Problem is, I don't have enough Testors dope left to put on 30 brushed coats.

Mongo

Bill Little · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2010, 10:50:36 AM »

Quote from: Les McDonald on April 04, 2010, 10:05:36 AM

Some how I'm thinking the use of .018 lines could be the result of "thirty coats of Testors blue paint and 5 degrees of engine offset".
That's alot to ask from a Fox .35.
I would "evaluate" these items and cheat a bit. I'm also hard pressed to envision "good corners" with that airfoil.
It is a very cool looking plane so this will be an interesting thread to follow. Good Luck and keep us posted.

Les McDonald

Hi Les,

Talking with Jim, he really doesn't know how the 3 view and information was created. He even asked ME if I knew *Bill Dean* who is credited with doing the 3 view. The airfoil is not like shown, that's the *major* difference. Using the *actual components* will make things a *bit* better.

BTW: I'm STILL trying to locate the plans to do your WC Stiletto.

Big Bear

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2010, 12:30:59 PM »

Big Bear:

Maybe a better question is: are there ANY elements of that little 3-view that are accurate?

Bill Little · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2010, 01:43:53 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on April 04, 2010, 12:30:59 PM

Big Bear:

Maybe a better question is: are there ANY elements of that little 3-view that are accurate?

Hi Denny,

Yep, the fuselage side view is pretty dead on. The overal shape of the wing, etc., is pretty good. Jim did not have the really pointed shapes to the end of the stab, fin, wing tips, and the airfoil is not correct. Overall, the plane will look a LOT like the 3 view, just some details were missed.

All in all, the 3 view is accurate for the *look* of the model.

Getting ready to hit the road towards home. Might have some pictures ready tonight! The kids have to get up at 4:30 in the morning to hit their *beats* so we are going back this afternoon. They go *on duty* at 6am.....

Mongo

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2010, 09:33:55 PM »

Here's a photo from 1961, I think...

Howard Rush · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2010, 12:46:44 AM »

Is that Larry Scarinzi? Looks like his hat and shirt.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2010, 06:37:52 AM »

Hi Howard:

Larry Scarinzi was the CL Stunt event director at the 1961 Nats. He stayed with us at our home that week (We lived about 5 miles north of Willow Grove in those days...) and I went with him each day to the Nats site and acted as a "gopher" for him. I'm pretty sure that's NOT him in the photo.

I remember watching Jim's winning flight at that Nats. I was standing almost directly down wind when Jim did his wingover. I vividly remember being shocked at how far he drove that thing down before he turned it inverted. It was a spectacular flight and he more than deserved to win it.

Attached is a photo of Jim and the Airon at that Nats. It is easy to see that the tip shapes on the stab and fin are nowhere near as pointed as they appear in Bill Dean's drawing.

Later - Bob Hunt

PS: Would you and Mary Lou prefer home made Spaghetti or grilled, marinated New York Strip steaks for dinner on Sunday? By the way, I've invited Dean Pappas and his wife, Mary Ann, to join us for dinner. See you late Sunday morning... - Bob

Shultzie · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2010, 12:19:59 PM »

WOW BOB! AMAZINGLY BEAUTIFUL PHOTO!!!
Your photo collection is truly amazing and thanks for sharing so many with us...(just a note gang...ME INCLUDED! I try (sometimes in vain) to remember Bob's Good advice... to give credit to the photographer when sharing photos from the photo gallery collections of fellow addicted CLPArrrrr's

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2010, 01:39:54 PM »

Actually, Don, I'm not sure where that particular photo came from - perhaps you? I just thought it would clear up the question about the shapes of the tips a bit. If I stepped on some toes, I'm truly sorry...
Bob Hunt

Trostle · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2010, 02:54:27 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on April 04, 2010, 01:43:53 PM

Hi Denny,

Yep, the fuselage side view is pretty dead on. The overal shape of the wing, etc., is pretty good. Jim did not have the really pointed shapes to the end of the stab, fin, wing tips, and the airfoil is not correct. Overall, the plane will look a LOT like the 3 view, just some details were missed.

All in all, the 3 view is accurate for the *look* of the model.

Getting ready to hit the road towards home. Might have some pictures ready tonight! The kids have to get up at 4:30 in the morning to hit their *beats* so we are going back this afternoon. They go *on duty* at 6am.....

Mongo

Bill,

Maybe my memory is escaping me, but did we not discuss a few years ago the Airon design by Bernie Ash, flown by Jim Vornholt. I think I have some full size plans that I acquired from John Davis. I am not sure how those plans were generated, but thought that the Adamisin clan was involved in getting those plans made. According to John Davis, the plans represented the airplane that Vornhold flew successfully some time ago and indeed, there are differences from those Bill Dean sketches. Are those the plans you are building from? I also think I remember that John Davis told me that Bernie Ash has several versions of that basic design.

For those who missed that era, Bill Dean would go around at the Nats and from photographs and sketches, he would generate small three views that would appear in the magazines. Generally, these were designs that had a successful record at the Nats I think these small sketches appeared in Air Trails, the Air Trails Annuals, then in American Modeler and maybe even later in American Aircarft Modeler. I think that some inaccuracies could be "overlooked" because it was understood that the source was from photos and sketches. Nontheless, the drawings were a neat resource of information and ideas that is one of the many things no longer provided by the model aviation press.

Keith

David Shad · « **Reply #26 on:** April 07, 2010, 05:01:03 AM »

I for one sincerely hope Don S. and Bob Hunt and everybody that has photos from the early days
of NATs and CLAPA flying will continue to share them with those of us who only know names
from magazines and the descriptions from here in the forum. I was just a kid in Florida in those
days building by myself and dreaming of these planes and the guys who were flying them. We lose
so many every year that a few old magazines and what you guys leave behind is all there will
be one day.....Thanks so much to those of you who make the effort to do this!!!!!

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #27 on:** April 07, 2010, 06:41:46 AM »

Brain fade fixed...

The photo I posted of Jim Vornholt and the Airon at the 1961 Nats originally came to me from (drum roll here...)... Jim Vornholt! Jim sent along a bunch of really great photos when he did his history piece for the pages of Stunt News. I made sure to save a few of those amazing photos, but I forgot to add the name of the source to the photo name when I saved it. I'll remember to do that in the future... I hope!

Anyway, as Dave wrote above, these great photos need to be published so that everyone who loves the history of this event can see them.

Later - Bob Hunt

Neville Legg · « **Reply #28 on:** April 07, 2010, 10:56:47 AM »

Bill Dean was English, and designed most of the Keil Kraft kits in the 1940's and '50's, I think he emigrated to the US in the late '50's or early '60's' and worked for Jasco, later Jetco, designing some of their kits.

Cheers Neville

Bill Little · « **Reply #29 on:** April 07, 2010, 12:23:27 PM »

Quote from: Trostle on April 06, 2010, 02:54:27 PM

Bill,

Maybe my memory is escaping me, but did we not discuss a few years ago the Airon design by Bernie Ash, flown by Jim Vornholt. I think I have some full size plans that I acquired from John Davis. I am not sure how those plans were generated, but thought that the Adamisin clan was involved in getting those plans made. According to John Davis, the plans represented the airplane that Vornhold flew successfully some time ago and indeed, there are differences from those Bill Dean sketches. Are those the plans you are building from? I also think I remember that John Davis told me that Bernie Ash has several versions of that basic design.
(snip)
Keith

Hi Keith,

Yes we did discuss this design back on my *first* attempt to build the Airon. The plans that John re-engineered from the model he had is what Jim, and I, are redrawing to match his model. Teh model John Davis had was *probably* one built by Jack Sheeks, but definitely NOT one built by Jim Vornholt. Jim only built one plane, and Bernie built a carbon copy right down to the same trim scheme. Jim said he would have to look at the AMA number to make sure which was which before he repaired the nose. Jim also says he was not aware of Bernie ever building another one, but he did build a similar model which I will have to dig up the name of.. It is apparent that Jack actually built one (or more) and Jack has told me he built an Airon.

The plans wioll reelct more of the model that Jim actually used to win the NATS, Junior in 1961, and was the only one Jim had.

The picture above is one of several that Jim also sent me of his model. He broke the nose off the Airon before the NATS and had to repair it. With the repairs, he painted the nose gold.

Big Bear

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #30 on:** April 07, 2010, 03:30:35 PM »

Bernie Ash's other published stunter was the "Supersonic Stunter" in the July 1966 FM.

I somehow seem to recall sharply swept wings and plenty of pointy spikes at every surface tip... No guarantee of accuracy... I might have the article, but not sure.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #31 on:** April 07, 2010, 09:36:23 PM »

I'm working in Indy now, & last nite I went the club meeting over at Jack's house, and Jim Vornholt was there. We started talking about the Airon, then I opened up SH to show him these pix.

Hey Mongo, ya gotta git-er-done!

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #32 on:** April 08, 2010, 08:35:23 AM »

Dennis,
Glad to hear that you are working in Indy!

Say hello to Jack for me.

Bill Little · « **Reply #33 on:** April 08, 2010, 01:43:36 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on April 07, 2010, 09:36:23 PM

I'm working in Indy now, & last nite I went the club meeting over at Jack's house, and Jim Vornholt was there. We started talking about the Airon, then I opened up SH to show him these pix.

Hey Mongo, ya gotta git-er-done!

Hi Dennis,

I sent the photos straight to Jim and Allen B. before I posted them here. I am ribbing the bottom of the wing and working out the removable LG in my head so that it will have enough strength, be fairly light, and fit where it is supposed to. never done a removable I-Beam LG.........

(oh yeah, in my haste, I forgot to put in the flap horn.... but that's not a problem!

)

Mongo

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #34 on:** April 09, 2010, 03:03:15 PM »

For those who missed that era, Bill Dean would go around at the Nats and from photographs and sketches, he would generate small three views that would appear in the magazines. Generally, these were designs that had a successful record at the Nats I think these small sketches appeared in Air Trails, the Air Trails Annuals, then in American Modeler and maybe even later in American Aircarft Modeler. I think that some inaccuracies could be "overlooked" because it was understood that the source was from photos and sketches. Nontheless, the drawings were a neat resource of information and ideas that is one of the many things no longer provided by the model aviation press.

Keith
[/quote]

I have an old three holed loose leaf notebook of those sketches that you enlarged and gave to dad. Pretty neat reference.
Chris...

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2010, 04:59:14 PM »

Interestingly those published "plans" make the Bill Dean version Classic Legal! That's what the rules stipulate: If the model was designed, built or flown prior to midnight December 31, 1969. Bill's drawings qualify as "designed" and certainly they were published. It can get confusing...

Bob Hunt

Bill Little · « **Reply #36 on:** April 10, 2010, 09:06:51 AM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on April 09, 2010, 04:59:14 PM

Interestingly those published "plans" make the Bill Dean version Classic Legal! That's what the rules stipulate: If the model was designed, built or flown prior to midnight December 31, 1969. Bill's drawings qualify as "designed" and certainly they were published. It can get confusing...

Bob Hunt

Hi Bob,

The model that John Davis had was strikingly similar to the 3 view....... which is still pretty close to Jim's actual model. The airfoil and tip shapes are the major differences.

Bill

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2010, 07:21:54 AM »

Looks great Big Bear!

Are you gonna be able to balance that thing with an aerotigre in the nose? Thats 2 some ounces heavier than a Fox I thought, and it doesn't look like there is much of a back end to that design.

Keep us posted on progress....

Bill Little · « **Reply #38 on:** April 12, 2010, 10:55:34 AM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on April 12, 2010, 07:21:54 AM

Looks great Big Bear!

Are you gonna be able to balance that thing with an aerotigre in the nose? Thats 2 some ounces heavier than a Fox I thought, and it doesn't look like there is much of a back end to that design.

Keep us posted on progress....

Hi Steve,

I *suspect* it will be similar to the Werwage Vulcan. Billy told me to dial in more elevator before I tried tail weight. That worked out fine so maybe the Airon will do the same without needing weight.

Thins slowed down momentarily, but I have the bottom of the wings about finished. Fitting the Bob Hunt style removable gear plates are the tedious situation. Never done it on an I-Beamer before.

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #39 on:** April 18, 2010, 04:54:00 PM »

Some pictures

The fuselage in Byron Barker Jig. I build the fuselage to this level on I-Beamers before installing the LE, TE, and spar.

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #40 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:01:51 PM »

The tip plates tacked to the glass:
(the crack is not in the 3/8ths top piece of glass! LOL!!)
Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #41 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:04:01 PM »

The outboard lower wing done.

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #42 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:06:29 PM »

Measuring the strip rib for cutting. I move the rib over this far (towards fuselage) and it is very close to the right length. A couple swipes, at most, with 320 and it fits.
Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #43 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:10:01 PM »

The lower wing is done. I use 1/4"X1/2" scrap marked to the C/L of the wing for supports, and all dimensions are marked on the glass, and parts, for correct alignment. Next will be to flip it over and tack everything back down (shimmed under the rear of the fuselage) and add new supports for the LE, TE.

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #44 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:35:21 PM »

I will be doing removable LG so I am going to rib the entire wing, then make templates for the 1/8th" lite ply ribs that will hold the plates. I just felt more comflrtable using the actual ribs for the "templates".

I am using a "reversed" Tom Morris 3 1/2" BC, so the large cut out in the fuselage side is also "reversed".

Big Bear

Matt Colan · « **Reply #45 on:** April 18, 2010, 06:35:05 PM »

Looks really good Bill! My Ares never looked like that when I was building it

john e. holliday · « **Reply #46 on:** April 18, 2010, 07:16:50 PM »

Hey Bill it is looking good. I am interested in the landing gear. I hope to have several more I-Beamers in the future.

Bill Little · « **Reply #47 on:** April 18, 2010, 07:55:22 PM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on April 18, 2010, 06:35:05 PM

Looks really good Bill! My Ares never looked like that when I was building it

Hi Matt,

I am blessed with a great big 3/8th" glass table.

(old pool table!)

With that, and jigging everything up like this, it is VERY straight and aligned when finished. I can install the Stab and know it is aligned to the wing/fuselage right on the table.

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #48 on:** April 18, 2010, 07:57:00 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on April 18, 2010, 07:16:50 PM

Hey Bill it is looking good. I am interested in the landing gear. I hope to have several more I-Beamers in the future.

Thanks, Doc. This is my first removable gear I-Beamer, so I called up Mr. Hunt to get his ideas. It should be an easy job, and work excellently.

Big Bear

Mike Ferguson · « **Reply #49 on:** April 20, 2010, 09:35:43 AM »

Did you have some parts of this laser cut? Judging from the pictures it looks that way.

Bill Little · « **Reply #50 on:** April 20, 2010, 10:43:39 AM »

Quote from: Mike Ferguson on April 20, 2010, 09:35:43 AM

Did you have some parts of this laser cut? Judging from the pictures it looks that way.

HI Mike,

Nope, all hand cut parts.

Big Bear

Mike Ferguson · « **Reply #51 on:** April 20, 2010, 11:17:53 AM »

Ah. Then your lettering skills for labeling the fuse formers are far neater - and more precise - than mine.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #52 on:** April 20, 2010, 10:19:06 PM »

Hi Bill,
The model is looking great!
Question on I-beams; When Bob built his USA-1 he said the wing got a little thinner than he wanted when final shape sanding it. Do you make your ribs a little bigger dimensionally, sand less, etc to make sure the airfoil doesn't get thinner?
Thanks man,
Chris...

Bill Little · « **Reply #53 on:** April 21, 2010, 05:31:58 PM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on April 20, 2010, 10:19:06 PM

Hi Bill,
The model is looking great!
Question on I-beams; When Bob built his USA-1 he said the wing got a little thinner than he wanted when final shape sanding it. Do you make your ribs a little bigger dimensionally, sand less, etc to make sure the airfoil doesn't get thinner?
Thanks man,
Chris...

Hi Chris,

I don't make any real change to the ribs, but I mount them just a touch *proud of the LE and TE so that I can blend them in while shaping the to *edges*.

As to the USA-1, the original plans I had were too "shallow" in the spar height to make the ribs work right, so the four we have built here, and those I have talked to about it, I have suggested adding 1/8" cap strips to the spars so that the actual airfoil can be achieved. If done as my plans showed, the ribs had to be forced down to meet the spar by about 1/8". You *could* make the spar 1/4" deeper and not worry about it. I have not seen the plans that MA has that were with the article, mine were the early ones I got from Billy/Warren. The rib template is correct, but the spar dimensions were not.

With the *cap strips* the ribs went on fine and you can shape the cap strips as you are supposed to on an I-Beam plane. I had already done one bottom panel on my first one when I called The Man and asked him if I was supposed to have to push the ribs down so far just for them to meet the spar. It was putting a *U* shape in the ribs!

Bill