Author Topic: I forgot...is this a classic...or is it just me? :( (Read 3808 times)

Shultzie · « **on:** December 26, 2007, 11:52:38 AM »

Uh...
Brain fart...is this a classic or is it just just my lame brain...(bof-us huh?

Trostle · « **Reply #1 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:39:46 PM »

Don,

You might have the designer and the author of that July 1974 American Aircraft Modeler article on the Avenger try to remember some of the details about when that Avenger was designed. The article talks about Sting Rays being built for the 67, 68 and 69 Nats. If the design for the Avenger was laid out prior to Dec 31, 1969, and if the designer is will attest to that, then the Avenger is Classic legal. Surely, you will be able to get something from the designer about when the design was laid out.

Keith Trostle

Randy Powell · « **Reply #2 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:49:18 PM »

Keith,

That depends on whether all the neurons are still connected and firing.

Shultzie · « **Reply #3 on:** December 26, 2007, 04:42:15 PM »

Quote from: Trostle on December 26, 2007, 12:39:46 PM

Don,

You might have the designer and the author of that July 1974 American Aircraft Modeler article on the Avenger try to remember some of the details about when that Avenger was designed. The article talks about Sting Rays being built for the 67, 68 and 69 Nats. If the design for the Avenger was laid out prior to Dec 31, 1969, and if the designer is will attest to that, then the Avenger is Classic legal. Surely, you will be able to get something from the designer about when the design was laid out.

Keith Trostle

Hey Keith!!!
I guess I would have to admit that me...the old badboy Shultzie of DesMoines Wa. started doodling my Avenger after many phone calls to my sailin' bud and mentor...who designed the basic model construction....details.....and any one who has followed THE SCHOOL OF OUR MASTA' BOB GIALDINI....can plainly see that without his encouragements and my many many phone calls to Wisc. (bordering on virtual stunt-stalking) I think Bob was as glad as I was that Avenger was finally drawn up and started on the fall of 1969 after I got back from the Philly nats.
That answers that huh? Keith...since we didn't keep phone records...and my wife Carol knows for certain that the paint fumes started about Jan. 1970) and so in truth...
MY OLD AVENGER.... pencil plans were started about Sept. and kept changing up until I started whackin in Nov.69.
Time flies as well as my memory.....Keith!
BOTTOM LINE: GUESS I JUST MISSED BEING A CLASSICAL GAS!

After munchin the left wing and part of the aft fuselage on the published Avenger..on a moving accident when I moved to my new home in Auburn, I took the balsa bones from first Avenger...and rebuilt the body, (but left the original cockpit and canopy as it was....cut it out and mounted into this FAI money coated wing version. MADE A REALLY HORRIFIC MISTAKE AND PAINTED THE FUSELAGE A CAMAFLAWED' MAROOOOOON COLOR! and as you can maybe see inside the canopy...I built the first Avenger in a walk in closet at our one bedroom apt. in SALEM OREGON. Look Closely and you'll see "Salem Oregon" on the headrest.

GADS.....thus proving that this model was started in the fall of 1969 after returning from the nats. Carol and I were married in May 1970 and this Black n white photo was taken when living at our rental house in DesMoines Wa.
Whatever...what drivel just to say...I CLEARLY CAN'T REMEMBER HARDLY A DIGGITY DARNDUD'THANG!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26, 2007, 08:38:43 PM »

Oh my gosh, Donnie, it's classic legal. If it was designed and started in November 1969, then it is legal.

So, when are you going to ship me the plans? It will be my next plane. Just make sure you sign them and say on them designed in the fall of '69

Trostle · « **Reply #5 on:** December 26, 2007, 09:48:02 PM »

Don,

Just to verify what Randy just posted about the Avenger being Classic legal.

The PAMPA rules for the Classic event state:

"The purpose of the event is to encourage the construction and flying of control line stunt models designed, published or kitted prior to the year 1970."

That says that if the thing was designed prior to December 1969, it is classic legal. The rules do not say anything about any requirement to have been constructed prior to that cutoff date. You might want to make up a letter or some sort of "official looking document" attesting to the information you posted above about designing that in the Fall of 1969 just to show any contest officials that might question when you designed that airplane. This Avenger thing is a really great looking airplane and it will really be neat to see this in the Classic event.

I think there would be some real interest by several people to build this airplane. Thanks for bringing up the question, otherwise, Classic enthusiasts might have missed this for a long time to come if not forever.

Keith Trostle

Bill Little · « **Reply #6 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:20:26 AM »

Brother Donaldo,

My demented, brain damaged, highly talented friend, your AVENGER is 100%, without a doubt, certified, guaaaaarrraaaanntttteeeeddddd, CLASSIC LEGAL!

So, you now really have absolutely no reason, whatsoever, to NOT build AND FLY a Classic AVENGER!

Armed with this knowledge, I HAD to inform the others in the RNMM leadership of your reluctance to build........... you may refer to the Swinger thread to begin to grasp the long reaching effects of the RNMM.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #7 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:51:58 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on December 27, 2007, 08:20:26 AM

Armed with this knowledge, I HAD to inform the others in the RNMM leadership of your reluctance to build........... you may refer to the Swinger thread to begin to grasp the long reaching effects of the RNMM.

Hey Dondo, you do NOT want to mess with them RNMM boyz!

All I wanted to do was use a painted canopy but they CLEARLY showed me the error of my ways, Could not even by them off by using SigMent instead of CA!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #8 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:56:48 AM »

P.S.:

I'm still looking for my kneecaps...

$:-\$

Randy Powell · « **Reply #9 on:** December 27, 2007, 11:07:37 AM »

So Don, get to printing up those plans ...

Shultzie · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2007, 02:53:31 PM »

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! LUCK' WUT I DUN DID?
THE TOP OF THE SLACKIN' HEAP! Even if this OLD AVENGER OF MINE...IS CLASSICALLY LEGAL....
First...
99% of the credit for that even being published goes to BOB GIALDINI for puttin up with my million n' one phone calls to his Wisc. pad in the middle of the night.
Second....
Credit to my beloved brotha in balsa...the late TIM DUNLOP who kept after me to stop digging old bashed up models out of the trash barrells at contests and start building my own designs..or even better yet......
take up rubber wakefield models like my friend shown here in this photo...who is suggesting that I do the same
TAKE YOUR ADDICTION OF THOSE WIERDLY WONDERFUL ADDICTING "STING RAYS" designed by your mentor-Gurrruuu of stunt..BobGialdini...Stand at his feet near the phone...Listen and learn..then if you are blessed...

THEN try to "make it your own by simply using the principles and practices learned from the Gialdini School biblical in nature book of the masta of control line stunt.

BUT NEVER FORGET TO FACE NW TOWARD THE STATE OF WISC. GET DOWN ON KNEES WITH THAT BIG BUTT OF YOURS FACING THE SW!

FINALLY GO TO YOUR DOPE STINKIN' DUST FILLED CLOSET BUILDING SANK-JUUUUWAREEE' AND BOLDLY GO FORTH....BUILDING YOUR OWN CHAPTER..IN THE BOOK OF GIALDINI...

and try to make it your own...IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH...
try to contact and our successful published friend and master modeler, and see if he
The gifted and blessed CAPTAIN ALVIN RABE
will give it his blessings and forward it to the powers that be pass it to the powers that be at AAM.
THE AVENGER PLAN SHOULD COME WITH A DISCLAIMER AND A WARNING...
Do not attempt to build this model without first reading and digesting...all the beautiful and precise articles that BOB GIALDINI has ever published. With that said and sad! Perhaps the pain and agony of building this model will prove worth while.....

AHH WHAT THE HECK! WHY NOT JUST BUILD THE REAL THING... A BEAUTIFUL BRAND NEW FULLY CLASSICAL STING RAY instead?

Randy Powell · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2007, 04:32:05 PM »

Hey, pretty lady holding it, too!

OK, now that Don has abased himself and outlined all the reasons why his plane is not worthy ...

Are plans available somewhere? Apart of the little one you posted here?

Shultzie · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:24:28 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 27, 2007, 04:32:05 PM

Hey, pretty lady holding it, too!

OK, now that Don has abased himself and outlined all the reasons why his plane is not worthy ...

Are plans available somewhere? Apart of the little one you posted here?

OK! OK! RANDY U SWEET TALKIN STUNT GRUNTUN' SON.
I will go out N' up into the attic...and dig through my plans box...I just may have one faded old Avenger plan that I'll have duplicated for you Randy! That is the least I can do....because of all the razzin n' jazzin that I have been giving you and Leo about stealing your new airpain' toys.
'
Only thing I would change would be to maybe enlarge that room around the nose section a touch in order to accept some of these new beefer profiled engines....in order to keep that cowling nice n' round lookin' then carry that sub fin dorsal...all the way back to the aft end. No one could tell without a tape measure the subtle change that it would make to the profile?

The only advantage over the Sting Ray....perhaps would having a lighter wing loading and why take the learning curve time to learn that new take of and landing technique when a conventional landing gear worked far and away more consistantly and also would be 100% improvement over that small foot print trike gear that was all but IMPOSSIBLE TO TAKE OFF AND LAND ON GRASS FIELDS...or tarmac with ooozing sticky tar strips...

THAT COST ME DEARLY IN OLATHA. Plus it is also lighter and far less hassle in contantly tweaking the wheel alignment.

Bottom line again....To me there is nothing more beautiful an image in the air than a BOB GIALDINI STING RAY.Especially in flight with a bold blue sky for a back drop....IT JUST REEKS' WITH GRACE=STYLE AND CLASS~ PURE AND SIMPLE ELEGANCE...N' UNMATCHED BEAUTY IN FLIGHT.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2007, 09:42:22 PM »

>>Only thing I would change would be to maybe enlarge that room around the nose section a touch in order to accept some of these new beefer profiled engines....<<

I'd build it as is. I think it's primo cool. And I'd use a PA 40 Merlin. Weighs about 8oz and should work well, being about twice as "beefy" as the original OS. and it would fit just fine in the existing footprint.

Trostle · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2007, 09:52:21 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 27, 2007, 04:32:05 PM

(clip)

Are plans available somewhere? Apart of the little one you posted here?

Tom Dixon has the Avenger plans in his listing.

Keith

Shultzie · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2007, 10:50:24 AM »

Quote from: Trostle on December 27, 2007, 09:52:21 PM

Tom Dixon has the Avenger plans in his listing.

Keith

TOM DIXON...over the years, always seem to come to the aid of all us clpa addicted souls. I think he is the only one who took the time and effort to have that plan of mine...but other plans that I thought were......long gone.

After the Avenger was published...I ended up with about a dozen plans of that first Avenger and throughout the years...gave all but one or two away to interested builders.

In that box of plans...I have a few photos of builders who took the time and effort to built that model...(however the modeler from Germany...changed not only the cowling....but also the canopy location...and mounted the stab section lower into the aft end because he needlessy feared that placement was suspect to not only stress cracking.
Also was sent by AAM a couple of photos of my Avenger that was built from other countries.. (a nice looking cream & copper trimed one...and another one painted BLACK with maroon trim stripes.
However that modeler wrote on the back that he lost that model on its second flight due to lines hooking on weed stems on take off, turned toward him...and hit the side of a panel truck that was parked on the street next to the school yard. (Humm? I wonder how many dandy lions' have made short lives of our stunt machines over the years?

Sven also feared that the wing might blanket the stab n' elevators in hard inside square turns..(like I had experienced in my first 67 StingRay.) Unfounded in both my 69 and 73 FAI 1/32 planked n' moneycoated wing paneled Avenger.
Actually if you take careful measurement...you will find that both the Sting Ray and my Avenger's stab and elevator is not that much different in placement... from a bevy of beautifully designed and built CLPA models that we being flown in those early daze' and even today.

I think it perhaps just appears that way...because of the dorsal and ventral sub fins narrow profile?

Shultzie · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2007, 11:00:25 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 27, 2007, 09:42:22 PM

>>Only thing I would change would be to maybe enlarge that room around the nose section a touch in order to accept some of these new beefer profiled engines....<<

I'd build it as is. I think it's primo cool. And I'd use a PA 40 Merlin. Weighs about 8oz and should work well, being about twice as "beefy" as the original OS. and it would fit just fine in the existing footprint.

Good idea Andy...that would keep that sleek round-flowing contoured body lines that captured my soul when I first saw that beautiful StingRay published in the model magazines with Bob Giadini and the Russian Surotkin' (gads---wrong spullin') standing side by side with their two beautiful winning models held on high over their heads)
Those were the COLD WAR DAZE' DAYS...but it was sooo DAMNED HEALING AND COOL TO SEE OUR FINEST MODELERS..STANDING SIDE BY SIDE IN FRIENDSHIP! WOW! Just thinking about it...still make gooski'-bumps and the hairs on my arms n' up my nose..Stand at attention!
WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MODELIN' MINDS...WOULDN'T HAVE WANTED TO BUILD THAT CLASSICAL STING RAY..after seeing that photo that was seen throughout the world in those early times.

THAT IS WHY...If I were to build any classic stunt model again.
IT JUST COULDN'T BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BOB GIADINI STING RAY!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2007, 11:50:14 AM »

>>THAT IS WHY...If I were to build any classic stunt model again.
IT JUST COULDN'T BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BOB GIADINI STING RAY!<<

Well, get on it, dude. Time's a wasting.

Keith,

I looked on his web page but couldn't find them.

Trostle · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2007, 12:46:07 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 28, 2007, 11:50:14 AM

Keith,

I looked on his web page but couldn't find them.

Randy,

I have a fairly recent catalog from Tom (in the last three months). The Avenger is listed in the section of Modern Era Plans. The note indicates the plans are from the July 1974 American Aircraft Modeler.

Keith

Randy Powell · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2007, 01:18:33 PM »

Keith,

Could be he just hasn't updated the web site yet. I may call him about them. Don seems to be saying the the original version that he designed in '69 had a trike gear while the published version (1974 AAM) had a wing mounted gear. Other than that they are the same.

Don, true?

Shultzie · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2007, 03:10:28 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on December 28, 2007, 01:18:33 PM

Keith,

Could be he just hasn't updated the web site yet. I may call him about them. Don seems to be saying the the original version that he designed in '69 had a trike gear while the published version (1974 AAM) had a wing mounted gear. Other than that they are the same.

Don, true?

IT IS NOT TRUE...THE TRIKE GEAR WAS ONLY ON MY 1969 STING RAY....
That trike gear on the Sting Ray was just waaaay to difficult for me and my reflexes plus the Ray was not the greatest..(that is an understatement) on grass and rough field.
WING MOUNTED GEAR WAS OF TOP PRIORITY # ONE FOR ALL MY AVENGER SERIES

Shultzie · « **Reply #21 on:** December 28, 2007, 03:12:56 PM »

Quote from: Trostle on December 28, 2007, 12:46:07 PM

Randy,

I have a fairly recent catalog from Tom (in the last three months). The Avenger is listed in the section of Modern Era Plans. The note indicates the plans are from the July 1974 American Aircraft Modeler.
Keith

KEITH-RANDY..YES! THAT IS CORRECT PUBLISH DATE
JULY 1974

(WOW!..I just re-read my article and hey gang--take that drivel with a grain of talc....I can't believe how nieeeve' not only my thoughts about stunt..but also about finishing techniques etc.
Oh well...Weirdly wacky funny reading stuff...GEE! I MUST HAVE REALLY BEEN SNIFF THE FUMES N' RAINIER BREW SAUCE...back there then stuff.

REMEMBER THIS WAS BEFORE I CHANGED CAREERS, STARTED MY NEXT CAREER AS A MODEL MAKER AT THE WIND TUNNEL..
IN TRUTH...IT TOOK ME ONLY ABOUT 15 MINUTES (seconds?) ON THAT NEW JOB THAT AFTER "MEETING AND GOING TO SCHOOL" WITH SOME REALLY AWESOME TALENTED BUILDERS AND FINISHERS.... THAT I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW JACK SH-TOLLA! ABOUT PROFESSIONAL WIND TUNNEL BUILDING TECHNIQUES PRACTICES N' GLOSS N' SHINE...

TALK ABOUT A VERY HUMBLING-EYEBALL OPENING REALITY HIT N' HEAD!
However I can take the razzzzz fellow modelers...READ IT AN

OR WEAP!

NO WONDER AFTER ALL THOSE YEARS AT THE WIND TUNNEL.....TALK ABOUT BURN OUT!!

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2008, 01:36:51 AM »

Quote from: Shultzie on December 26, 2007, 11:52:38 AM

Uh...
Brain fart...is this a classic or is it just just my lame brain...(bof-us huh?

Yup, this is a classic because the picture is upside down. Ya Gotta show the the picture at the right attitude Dude.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2008, 03:21:04 AM »

DONALD!!!!!!

"THAT IS WHY...If I were to build any classic stunt model again.
IT JUST COULDN'T BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BOB GIADINI STING RAY!"

Like Keith said... put down the tin of Bud and get to work.

The Red Neck Mafia will be at your door step if you don't shape up!

Besides, Bob G. is a great guy, and I personally would like to see another "Sting Ray"!

Bill Little · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2008, 10:09:21 AM »

Brother Shultzie,

The IMPORTANT part is that you BUILD! Your Avenger is Classic legal by your own admission. Of course the Sting Ray is Classic legal (DUH!). Flying Classic at meets is totally fun, there is no pressure of the PAMPA Classes.

You want the *optimum* set up? Get either an Aero Tiger 36 or a PA 40UL. Both would power either plane like you have never seen. And with your finishing techniques, you would have a beautiful, great flying plane to have a bunch of FUN with.

Shultzie · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2008, 10:42:13 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on January 08, 2008, 03:21:04 AM

DONALD!!!!!!

"THAT IS WHY...If I were to build any classic stunt model again.
IT JUST COULDN'T BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BOB GIADINI STING RAY!"

Like Keith said... put down the tin of Bud and get to work.

The Red Neck Mafia will be at your door step if you don't shape up!

Besides, Bob G. is a great guy, and I personally would like to see another "Sting Ray"!

check out the attached photos...of real history

Lets take a look at Bob's beautiful Icon Sting Ray...the REAL THING
The next shots are a mere shadow of the real thing...speaking of shadows!!!
Like the song says..."I Feel a Shadow, hangin' over me!"
Last night, somethin came over me...(must be that BUDLITE AND COOKIES before dinner last night...

I climbed up into the attic...found my old Sting Ray dope stained and time faded old plans and after building three...you can imagine just how beat to heckity-hacked they look.
Also one reeeeaaaaly faded AAM AVENGER PLAN...unused. (I wonder if the all that yellow will show up in my copies that I hope I can have my old Boeing Buddies print for me...later this week at the repo shop.
Funnier yet...I found one set of original drawings for the last unpublished Avenger that was to use Bob Hunt's beautiful 59" foam wing, flaps...stab & elevators. Those plans too were so faded and Titebond stained...from hackin and gluin' up parts for an airplane that never came to be born free.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2008, 04:56:34 PM »

Donaldo,

Thanks for posting those pics, especially the nose of yours. That was one fantastic model. I recall those days with fondness.

Bill Little has been all over me (gently) about drawing up Dad's "California Jet" Shark. It hangs nicely preserved in sanding sealer ready for a nice refinish in my garage. (Complete with Major Matt Mason pilot).

If you build an Avenger, I will produce an old codger named Jerry for VSC 21 (2009) with his old 46 powered big Sharkster. Hey, What?

COME ON MAN, WE NEED MORE OLD SCHOOL CANOPY AND LETRASET USERS TO SHOW US HOW IT WAS DONE " IN THE DAY"...!!!???$$$

Chris...

Bill Little · « **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2008, 12:42:49 AM »

Hi Chris,

I cannot see how Shultzie can possibly pass up that proposal!

Shultzie · « **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2008, 01:47:07 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on January 09, 2008, 12:42:49 AM

Hi Chris,

I cannot see how Shultzie can possibly pass up that proposal!

Perhaps I should do the real thing and build a model that started all of this classical crap...OOOOOOOPS!
WHAT AND WHO'S MODEL CAN MAKE THAT CLAIM TO BE THE FIRST FULLY FLAPPED STUNTER THAT STARTED ALL THIS CLASSICAL GAS???
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? The last really different stunt model that flew at the 68 NATS..WAS BOB BARONS HUMMMMMBUG! Or was it AL Rabe and his beautiful Red Mustang?

THE MOMENT IN TIME WAS....JUST TOO EARLY FOR THESE TWO AMAZING STUNT FLYERS....THE WORLD WAS NOT READY FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN A MODIFIED NOBLER?
I can assure' that the majority of CLPA puriest flyers and judges alike...I think were really threatened that these two amazing flyers who BOTH SHOULD HAVE "FLIPPED FOR THE FIRST PLACE AWARD THAT DAY....when it came to puttin in the best pattern...were HUGHLY SHORT CHANGED THAT SAD SAD DAY!
attached photo of the Hummmmbugga' and Rabe's Mustang (sorry I couldn't find the photo of Al's beautiful Red one that he flew that day. Rabe got ripped and Baron both got bummed in 68

Bill Little · « **Reply #29 on:** January 10, 2008, 08:09:15 AM »

Brother Donaldo,

With your obvious talents, and all, I would LOVE to see you do a rendition of Al's Mustang. Your connection with Al makes it a perfect match. And with the modern powerplants, many of Al's problems of the day disappear!

Plus, all kinds of laser cut parts are available for Al's Classic Mustang from Kyle at Tank's Hanger since he cuts the parts for Al.

GO FOR IT!

Shultzie · « **Reply #30 on:** January 10, 2008, 11:43:00 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on January 10, 2008, 08:09:15 AM

Brother Donaldo,

With your obvious talents, and all, I would LOVE to see you do a rendition of Al's Mustang. Your connection with Al makes it a perfect match. And with the modern powerplants, many of Al's problems of the day disappear!

Plus, all kinds of laser cut parts are available for Al's Classic Mustang from Kyle at Tank's Hanger since he cuts the parts for Al.

GO FOR IT!

Al Rabe has a good gaggle of my old toons' that I have done for him over the years...and these are but a couple from the old Aero Modeller 78 issue. Perhaps if Al is lurking he could post a couple of his favorite ones.
Here is a couple of mini poor scans from that old mag.