Hi Guys,

I'm sure this ground has been covered before, but I can't find it.

How far can I modify my Nobler and still fly it in Classic?

I would like to make it a stand WAAAAY off scale ME 109. Where on the list below it the cut off point that no longer meets the "letter" of the rules, and or the "Spirit" of the rules?

1. Only use an ME 109 paint scheme.

2. #1 + Only change the Canopy to look like an ME 109 canopy.

3. All above + change Rudder shape.

4. All above + change front 2" of the cowl area.

5. All above + change cowl area all the way back to the canopy.

After reading the rules, my guess is that #1 and #2 should not be a problem.   #3 may be OK, but pushing it a little?   #4 would be nice for me, but may be pushing the envelope?   #5 would be even nicer, but may be tearing the envelope open? ;-)

Your input would be greatly appreciated. ... TIA

As Bill has stated No. 1 is about the only thing you could get by with.  Never took time to take pictures at the time, but, I have seen Nobler wings and tail surfaces in different shaped fuselages.  Later,  DOC Holliday

You can do anything you want. I'm pretty sure the rules don't prohibit you from entering an SV-11 if you want. But it's not a classic. I sort of feel like if your are going to build a classic plane, build a classic plane. Many feel that it should be powered with an engine from the era, too. Sort of depends on how you feel about it.

I would have loved to increase the stab/elevator area on the Novi I'm building. The tail plane is pretty small (though the rudder is huge). But I feel like "a deal is a deal" and it's a classic plane so all of the areas are built according to plan. I did change the wing construction method, but that was more due to my familiarity with it and the fact that it will look identical once covered.

Hi Rudy
here ya  go, you can pretty much do whatever and use  any engine you want. I would just say keep in mind the spirit.

Rules from PAMPA  below

PAMPA Rules For
Classic Stunt
INASMUCH as the years prior to 1970 represent the Golden Years of Control Line Precision Aerobatics event
and
Whereas many of modeling’s most beautiful aircraft were designed and flown in those years, and
Whereas that era and those airplanes have great meaning to flyers who’s hearts hold a special place for these
significant aircraft which are the heart-blood of today’s stunt event, and
Whereas those flyers are desirous of an event, fashioned around those aircraft, to bring together Stunt modelers
to once again engage in friendly competition, camaraderie, and nostalgic reflection on the era;
Therefore be it resolved that the following rules will define such a competition, and BE IT FURTHER
RESOLVED THAT IF ANY RULE SHALL CONFLICT WITH THE ENJOYMENT OF THE EVENT AT
SUCH A COMPETITION, THAT CONFLICT SHALL BE RESOLVED SO AS TO PROVIDE THE
GREATEST POSSIBLE PARTICIPATION AND PLEASURE FOR ALL INVOLVED.
1. the purpose of the event is to encourage the construction and flying of control line stunt models
designed, published or kitted prior to the year of 1970. it is a fact that many old time stunt designs continued to
complete in the event subsequent to the inception of the “modern’’ pattern; therefore their appearance in a
classic-era event would not be out of character. Any design may be entered, provided the contestant has
convincing evidence of the designs compliance.
It is expected that the contestants will comply with the spirit of the event and enter only qualifying
models which as closely as possible accurately reflect the aerodynamic layout and appearance of the
original. In order to assist the judges, it is suggested that contestants provide reasonable proof that
the model presented was actually flown during the period of eligibility as defined in paragraph 1,
This proof could include kit plans, magazine articles and or plans, photographs and documentation
signed by the original designer. It is suggested that the judges ask the contestant if any changes have
been made to the model presented.
Although modern construction materials and techniques are allowed, models which more closely reflect the
construction and finish of the original airplane will receive superior awards such as during appearance judging.
In other words, although a foam core-winged model of an aircraft which originally was of I-Beam construction
is acceptable, it could be expected to receive fewer fidelity points than an equally constructed and finished
model of the same aircraft using materials more closely reflecting those of the original.
January 1, 1997
PAMPA classic rules
Page 1
PAMPA Rules For
Classic Stunt
acceptable, it could be expected to receive fewer fidelity points than an equally constructed and finished model
of the same aircraft using materials more closely reflecting those of the original.
Fidelity points from 0 to 20 will be awarded for fidelity to the concept of the original design and confirmation
to the spirit of the event. Obvious and or gross distortions of the original design of any eligible model in order to
gain an actual or perceived performance advantage over the original design will also be subject to reduction of
fidelity points. Again, the decision as to the level of distortion and the penalty appropriate for such will be at the
discretion of the on- site official and not subject to dispute.
Trim devises, such as adjustable tip weights, leadouts and removable landing gear, which allow the entrant to
adapt to the contest site and conditions are allowable. This would not allow the substitution of tricycle gear for a
conventional gear, or vice versa, however such alteration of the original design would be subject to
consideration under rule 4, above.
Contestants may enter models which they have not constructed themselves. However they will not be awarded
appearance points for such a model.
All current AMA safety rules will apply. The use of mufflers is encouraged, and may be required at some
contest sites. Event sponsors are encouraged to advise in their advertising circulars as to such requirements. The
use of mufflers will not be discriminated against and vis-à-vis fidelity to the original design.
Current AMA maneuver descriptions and procedures will be employed. Although the pattern of the classic era
had some minor procedural deviations from today’s pattern, they are not significant to the flyer and would only
cause administrative difficulties which it is our desire to minimize.
Appearance points, from 0 to 20 per current AMA regulations, will be awarded prior to the contestant’s first
flight. It is suggested that all models be judged together as the first official act of the competition. This allows
the greatest possible accuracy of comparison for judging and also will showcase these attractive models for
photo opportunities. Appearance points will be assigned by an official based on the level of craftsmanship,
finish, and overall beauty of the models.
January 1, 1997
PAMPA classic rules
Page 2

You're only talking a few minor changes to the outline of the fuselage.  Noblers were built by the hundred with just about every fuselage outline you can imagine.  It's not like you are taking an Impact and calling it a Nobler just to get a better flying plane.  Under the "greatest enjoyment" clause mentioned above, it shouldn't be any problem at all.

Hi Paul,

Keith Trostle's plane was an FW-190.

But I know where you are coming from.

BTW:  I wonder just how far the Mackey ME-109 is off from a Nobler? 

Bill <><

BTW: Kieth Trostle calls his excellent FW a Ta152, but Bill Little is right, it is much closer to a FW 190D-9 because it has the more normal size FW 190 wing. IMHO, Kieth's FW is one of the best looking of all the semi-scale CL stunt planes.

Warm Regards and a Happy "Flying" New Year to all  :-)

Rudy,

The Ta152 was a Focke Wulf plane. They named it a "Ta" in honor of Kurt Tank, their chief designer - and the man who designed the FW 190.

I definitely agree with you about its looks. I have an original photo of it at the 1966 Glenview Nats (Keith's first?) and hope to get it scanned in so I can post it. I'll never forget the time Keith and Jim Silhavy spent patiently answering my teenage questions. Maj Trostle finished in 5th place, IIRC.

Take care and have a safe and wonderful New Year,

Ron

Ron,
Very interesting. I had always thought the TA-152 as well as all of the "long nose" Focke Wulf's were Junkers Jumo powered!
Chris...

Ron,
Very interesting. I had always thought the TA-152 as well as all of the "long nose" Focke Wulf's were Junkers Jumo powered!
Chris...

Hi Chris,

I never know how much detail to put into these posts. I always assume most people are already bored somewhere after my second sentence! ;-)

You are correct. The Jumo 213A was also used in some of the 1st prototypes. Most used the DB 603 G. Then when the Jumo 213E version became available, it was also used in some of the few production A/C that made it to active duty. This Jumo and the DB 603 G were only a stop gap solution while FW was awaiting the DB 603 LA which produced 2,250 HP. The DB was much more reliable than the Jumo, but was not as readily available. Both engines were still being used in the A/Cs development when the war ended. ..... Even for the last two people that have read this far, this is probably waaaaay more than anyone really wants to know about this! ;-)

In closing, The development of the Ta 152 was not done in the same safe environment enjoyed by the USA aviation industry. Things did not go smoothly. One can only imagine how hectic it was in 1944/45 Germany trying to build A/C, let alone producing a new design!
    My guess is the phone calls went something like: "..... Hi Kurt, you know those 200 superchargers, and the ball bearings that we were going to send you today? There will be a slight delay. You see, our factory is in ashes, the train tracks are destroyed, and most of my workers are missing. I'll get back to you in a few days. Sorry, I have to go now, I hear the sound of a PW and a Merlin engine overhead!....."

I

I have the Ta 152 plan and now a bit of history to go with it.  Thanks. Keith I've thought that was a pretty ship for a long time

    Theres a Spanish Me 109 , (Ha  1109) that was published in Aeromodellor in the 50s

    As "Piccador" I think. Flown at the world champs ? , Parrallel Chord wing.

  Its the Merlin engine version like in the Battle of Britian Film.

  The Spanish built ons were often silver,a Photo Recosanance one was Purpleish,
  the Roundles are Red , Yellow , Red .
  So the schemes a bit colourfull .