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Author Topic: Classic Fidelity Rules  (Read 2520 times)

Offline proparc

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Classic Fidelity Rules
« on: November 27, 2012, 06:29:03 PM »
Guys, I got a question concerning Classic outline rules. If a ship say, like a Skylark has 2/3's flaps and I want to take the flaps all the way out to the end, is that Kosher? Also, say I want to widen the rear of the ship to get room for ball links etc., is that also okay? A lot of these classic jobs are too narrow in the rear. Also, can I substitue a wood canopy of the same outline for a plastic canopy?
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Online Trostle

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 07:19:27 PM »
Good question.  This is where I think the people who wrote the Classic rules (PAMPA) intended the "Fidelity" points come in.  The problem I have with this so called "Fidelity" is that contest officials cannot in any way be expected to be intimately familiar with every design to know about rudder shape planform or full span/partial span flap or whatever unless there is some sort of reference provided by the builder (as in scale), but I do not think the writers of that rule intended that, so I do not know how "Fidelity" points can be awarded, or for that matter, how to the writers expect contest officials to be able to determine if a particular model is "compliant" with the intent (whatever that means) of a model entered in the Classic event.   Maybe the writers of that rule will read this and explain how this works.

I have attended contests where models entered have been "determined" to not in full compliance with the original design and appearance points have been deducted.  I have never been to a contest where "Fidelity" points were given.

Keith

Offline proparc

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 09:13:16 PM »
I am not so much concerned with fidelity points as I just concerned with the "legal" aspects. I should have stated it different initially. I thought the fidelity point issue and the "legal" issue were one and the same. Apparently they are not. My concern is making changes while still keeping within the rules of what legal. The "outline" requirement is pretty simple and straightforward. Not sure about the rest.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 08:45:59 AM »
What contests do we have that use fidelity points in Classic?   I know VSC and  the NATS use appearance points.   Classic is not an official AMA event and that is why it is separate from the AMA official flying.  Also I think in some parts of this great land, they do not  use appearance or fidelity points.  Now do we go by the original design by the original  builder,  or by the way the plane was built by the average modeller?   Also why worry about fidelity points when mosts kit planes are not exactly like the original plane.  Some of our designers are now no longer with us to substantiate their stories of how manufacturers manipulated their design for production and packaging.   
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dan Bregar

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 07:21:38 PM »
Guys !  Thanks for the heads up.  I will make sure that I bring "legal" counsel with me to the nest Classic contest I enter.  
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Offline proparc

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 08:19:15 AM »

As to making the rear wider, I do it on all my planes and I do not use the "Z" bend on the control horn, but ball joints, so the rear end has to be wider. It doesn't really affect the looks.  Same for a slighly shorter nose to allow for muffler weight.  H^^

Thanks Ty, that's the direct answer I was looking for. H^^
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 12:50:45 AM »
Milt,
Which Skylark plans are you using for your build? The Skylark I built was from Ed Southwick plans drawn by Bill Byles. It shows flaps both 2/3's and full length. I did mine full length. I've seen a lot of Old Time and Classics with solid canopies so I don't think either is a legality issue, as well the wider fuse. I used a ball link on mine and had a hatch under the stab, once I thinned out the hatch a bit there was no interference and it's fuse width was built to the plans.
Chris...

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 08:50:39 AM »
Fidelity points were meant to help weed out the extreme changes. Noblers or I-beamers built with foam wings, equal panels when they should be asymmetrical are good examples. Anyone judging the color of an airplane as a fault is dead, insanely, wrong. 

Judges are not expected to have knowledge of every design, but like all "judgements", contestants are expected to be honest or they have to live with themselves.

There is certainly no fault in allowing for adjustable features. They were always adjustable, the difference is that we had to use an Exacto knife in the past.

There are several ways to take care of ball links in the aft end. The fuselage could be widened a little. I am currently building an Impala in honor of my good friend Ed Elasick. In this case I cut a slot in the fuselage side to allow for the horn and ball link travel. The 1/8" gained was enough and this will simply be covered with silk span, and it is totally invisible. An external  blister could be added if necessary. There will also be a small hatch for the push rod length adjuster.

My "Sea Vixen has small "bumps"  added to top of the booms for flap horn clearance. None of these items change the design and in most cases would not be noticed, unless you were told.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2012, 04:55:24 PM »
I have already done that  to planes in which there was not enough room for the controls in the rear of a plane.   Cut out enough wood to get clearance and then cover the hole with silk span or poly span or what ever covering I am using at the moment. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline EddyR

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 11:35:49 AM »
Why not just use a stock Veco horn and a 1/16" pushrod with a Z bend in the end.  n1 I am just kidding. I did build a lot that way "back in the day" but those models didn't last long enough to wear out anything.
 This model was built that way back in the 1960's and when I opened it up last year I was surprised to see the controles were OK. Very little wear. The bellcrank was aluminum and it had flexible leadouts and they did not cut the bellcrank. Maybe 150 flights on the plane. Fox .59 powered most of it,s life. I had another almost the same model and the contoles did fail. Flap horn broke.
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 11:56:42 AM »
Hi Guys
Couple of things, about the one Model "Skylark", Ed did use different width and span flaps on that model, so It is OK to use full or 3/4 span. I can see no reason to ding anyone for making the rear fuse a little wider so the controls would fit, I am sure that if you time warped back to 69 and measure all the Skylarks built, all the fuse widths would NOT be exactly the same, Plus this is not a change that effects performance , and it is not like you are making the wing or tail longer, or those type changes. It is my "opinion" (read mine) that the fidelity point were there to stop people from making obvious substantial changes  in order to get an advangtage over other pilots, and to reward  people who go out of their way to use period parts and make the plane as if it was built before 1970.

By the way The US NATs used fidelity point for about 3 years, I judged the NATs for around 9 or 10 years in Classic and the last few years I used fidelity points.
I am sure some things slipped by, but what I did was to do the best job that I could with the info I had.
For example there were pilots that used old period engines with Classic  Froom spinners, Original decals, original old wheels, gears, and other items that was more in the spirit of the Classic period.  If a plane showed with a 2 in longer  tail moment, modern AAC or Electric engine, CF prop, CF gear, foam wing or different type of wing than the original... etc, that to me would NOT be a candidate for full points, and according to the rule should be dinged points.

Good example of this was Paul Walkers Skylark from years back that used all period parts, McCoy engine, wood 60s prop, etc.  I think he may have won VSC with that model too.

AS far as the rule, the only thing you can expect is a judge to do the best job possible with the knowledge he has about Classic fidelity.

Regards
Randy

Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 04:33:58 PM »
I think fidelity is a private matter best left between a man and his stunter :)!

Offline proparc

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 09:30:59 AM »
I think fidelity is a private matter best left between a man and his stunter :)!


 LL~ LL~ LL~
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2012, 05:43:28 PM »
In retrospect, those who drafted the original Classic - nee 'Nostalgia' - rules (Gerry Phelps, Ted Fancher, Yours Truly) probably should've omitted any reference to Fidelity points.  The reason being that very few among us today can accurately remember the nuances of each-and-every pre-1970 design.

That said, it must be admitted that, "back when", many modifications to then-existing designs were made, e.g. wing-mounted gear in Noblers, T-Birds and so on.  Again, in retrospect, what we'd hoped to avoid were BLATANT changes, such as extended tail moments, thicker airfoils and....well, you get the drift.

In the 14 (of soon-to-be 25) years that I was partially responsible for the VSC, we never once used Fidelity points.  There was simply no need to do so since most - actually ALL - seemed to go out of their way to re-create accurate, faithful reproductions of "the way things wuz".

If I had to do it all over again (and thankfully I don't!), I'd eliminate any reference to Fidelity points.  Simply too difficult to administer.
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline peabody

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Re: Classic Fidelity Rules
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 07:13:47 AM »
The GSCB awarded Fidelity points for a while.....until it dawned on the CD's that it was almost impossible to determine which models were true to design.....it places an undue burden on CD's and judges....

Old Time is getting to be tougher to enforce, too...
Have fun!


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