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Author Topic: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines  (Read 25734 times)

Offline bdt-m

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True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« on: June 20, 2023, 05:05:03 PM »
What real Nostalgia PC Carrier engines look like; 1975 era.... y1

First picture Duke Fox signed Fox .36, #2 of the first 3 made. Engine #1 was used to Win the 1975 Nat's.
Second Picture Fox Box
Third Picture The "Temporary Owner's Manual"

We can't expect these 1975 era engines to compete with modern engines; the 20 engine bonus points should be 80-100 to level the playing field.
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2023, 05:32:07 PM »
I don't remember the exact details, but we found a Fox factory LH crank that worked in this engine. I'm sure Paul Smith will know which one it is.  VD~
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2023, 06:25:14 AM »
Quote from: bill bischoff on June 20, 2023, 05:32:07 PM
I don't remember the exact details, but we found a Fox factory LH crank that worked in this engine. I'm sure Paul Smith will know which one it is.  VD~

I fiddled with two or three of those engines with no success.  I never witnessed anybody else who got good or even fair performance. 
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Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2023, 09:42:42 AM »
Quote from: Paul Smith on June 21, 2023, 06:25:14 AM
I fiddled with two or three of those engines with no success.  I never witnessed anybody else who got good or even fair performance. 
Quote from: bill bischoff on June 20, 2023, 05:32:07 PM
I don't remember the exact details, but we found a Fox factory LH crank that worked in this engine. I'm sure Paul Smith will know which one it is.  VD~

Agreed, the Fox.36 PC engine was not as good of a performer as expected. To get it to run strong required a very particular propeller combination of diameter & pitch, and even then, it was not on par with a C35 Super Tigre. Besides the 75 Nat's win, the .36 Fox PC engine #1 was never run again (as well as #2 & #3 sitting in a box for 48 years), however; Duke Fox was extremely happy at the fact his engine won the Nat's. #^
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2023, 10:03:51 AM »
Hummmm,,

I flew in the 1975 Nats and it looked like ALL ST 35CRC to me.  At that time the law of the land was "stock plain bearing throttled engines".   

I assembled a Mongoose with one of those Fox Carrier Specials for the local hobby dealer and it just didn't work.  That's not to say the others didn't work.  Spotty quality was a Fox standard, at least until the Mark III Combat & beyond.
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Paul Smith

Offline john vlna

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2023, 10:38:13 AM »
I believe you are right Paul. I did not fly carrier back then, but when I got into nostalgia I built a Mottin XPC-1 (1969 model ). I used the ST35C. Great combination, good flying model and good engine when set up right.
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Offline Dave Rolley

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2023, 11:02:16 AM »
I played with the Fox PC engine during that period.

Gerry Deneau purchased one of those engine directly from the trunk of Duke’s car at the ‘75 Nats. We went back to the dorm and he promptly took it apart to examine the innards and workmanship. He used it on one of his next models but the overall handling and performance left a lot to be desired.

A ST Mark 4 carb helped the handling a lot. The Fox carb was workable but inferior to the ST carb. Several years later I discovered the OS 4B and 7B carbs. They were great. But by then the the Fox PC engines had been relegated to a box on a shelf somewhere in the basement. Being the pack rat I am, they are probably still there.

During the time when plain bearing engines were required but you could modify the engine, I tried stuffing the ABC P/L from a K&B 5.8 in the Fox case. That didn’t go well.  The case was too thin for the larger OD sleeve.  I ended up making press in plain bearing slugs to replace the ball bearing in the 5.8.  That worked very well but the small bearing surface area only lasted a few runs.
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Offline bdt-m

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2023, 11:43:46 AM »
Quote from: Paul Smith on June 21, 2023, 10:03:51 AM
Hummmm,,

I flew in the 1975 Nats and it looked like ALL ST 35CRC to me.  At that time the law of the land was "stock plain bearing throttled engines".   

I assembled a Mongoose with one of those Fox Carrier Specials for the local hobby dealer and it just didn't work.  That's not to say the others didn't work.  Spotty quality was a Fox standard, at least until the Mark III Combat & beyond.

Actual results, scores & engines used from 1975 Nat's:

Jr. 1st place 378.15 STC35
Sr. 1st place 394.20 Fox .36PC, and Sr. 2nd place 361.90 McCoy-Testor .35
Op. 1st Place 394.12 STC35, 2nd place 392.60 STC35

All plain bearing engines, NO modifications allowed, and all winning entries in all PC classes got torn down and fully inspected for any modifications.

Note the Jr. & Sr. scores exceed the 3rd place Op. scores and beyond. ACTUALLY....the Sr. score of 394.20 with a Fox.36PC was the highest score of all combined; Jr, Sr, and Op. <=

This was when entries numbered into the high 60 or more count (some years +90), and Jr. & Sr. flights outscored Op. scores. Will never see this occurrence again... y1
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Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2023, 07:53:17 AM »
This whole thread is Nostalgic!  I started with an LS tuned  36x  made with plain bearing.  Worked good enough to compete but fiddly carb.  Tried  testors .35. Dog.  Tuned up a ST .35 and never looked back. Great motor. Used 62%.  TS
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Offline bdt-m

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2023, 09:31:47 AM »
Quote from: C.T. Schaefer on June 22, 2023, 07:53:17 AM
This whole thread is Nostalgic!  I started with an LS tuned  36x  made with plain bearing.  Worked good enough to compete but fiddly carb.  Tried  testors .35. Dog.  Tuned up a ST .35 and never looked back. Great motor. Used 62%.  TS

Yup.... the STC35 was the 'King' of PC in the 70's. The Testor-McCoy .35 was popular in SoCal for many years, yet the STC35 clearly dominated SoCal & National carrier.

Attached pictures of Doug Browns original engine he used at the 75 National's in Sr. PC, Doug got 2nd place in Sr., however; his score would have placed him in 3rd place in Op.; Testors-McCoy .35.

Point; the Fox.36 & McCoy-Testors .35 could be very competitive, however; it took a lot more propeller & setup work than the STC35.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 10:42:51 AM by bdt-m »
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Offline bdt-m

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2023, 08:10:21 PM »
The 'King' of PC engines in the 1970's era was the ST C35. I don't believe any other 'plain bearing' engine dominated like the ST C35. Running high nitro, Tornado 9-8 plastic yellow nylon props, the stock STC35 plain bearing engines won a lot of local & National carrier events.

Some ST C35's were 'Beasts', winning multiple National Championships in Jr. Sr. and Op. PC. No other PC Plain bearing engine performed to this level, not the Fox or McCoy.

A True Nostalgia engine: the ST C35 pictured is the 'Daddy' of all ST C35's, it has been sitting in a box for 47 years after winning 3 consecutive Open National Championships in a row, a bit dirty, promise to clean her up and make her look as good as new. y1



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Offline Dennis Holler

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2024, 10:00:32 AM »
Dumb question of the day...I've been looking through threads trying to dig out the detail and I'm sure it is there staring me in the face as usual... 

If I am looking at the right stuff, I'm seeing the 20 point engine bonus just tied to non Schnurel engines in general... I assume that is for Class I & II and profile? Is the plain bearing thing a part of this or not? 

I didn't notice bearing type in the rules, but who knows what I was looking at  LL~ LL~ Or is the bearing type question an unwritten distinction or is it spelled out in various club rules or something? And is it only applied to the profile class? 

I think I'm getting mixed up between rules, classes, views, and opinions!! and probably publication dates as well  LL~ LL~ LL~

And maybe further, am I right in thinking there isn't a "year" cutoff on engine's its just non schnurl engines? 

So the old ST40's and G60/65's are good but they will generally be way down on power/rpms to the schnurl engine's?

So to the point, My new favorite engine, that OS MAX VR65 DF, clearly doesn't get the 20 points for the nostalgia engine. An ST.65 RE would though.. albeit about half the power maybe.  And still the ST would provide the bigtime FUN factor for rolling in the Nostalgia class non slider and all that.

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I've started plenty...would be nice to finish something!!!

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2024, 09:28:50 AM »
The engine bonus goes to any non-schnurle engine regardless of age.  The major factor is that I don't know of any cross flow engines currently being built.
Things like ST G21's, K&B 40's and OS Max III are good if you can find one that isn't worn out.

So if you use a "bonus" engine and go 85 high & 20 MPH low, plus the 20 point bonus, you score 300 points.
If you go 100 high and 20 low with a modern engine you get 340 points.  This is without the landing, old time design and scale points.

The old scoring system favored very fast planes. 

With a 20 MPH low speed the break even difference is 85 MPH (bonus) vs 90 MPH (modern). 

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Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2024, 12:41:09 PM »
After further thought, I recalled the old 4 points per MPH formula.

With the same low speed, an increase of one MPH high equals four points on the score.

So 5 MPH times 4 = 20 points, which is the old engine bonus. 
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Paul Smith

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: True Nostalgia Carrier Engines
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2024, 06:42:15 AM »
Would this be an opportunity to say that I have several tuned K&B 4011 engines as well as a Johnson throttled Torpedo .40?   These are from a club members estate. TS
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