Author Topic: The Deck (Read 2223 times)

skyshark58 · « **on:** February 08, 2012, 04:29:28 PM »

With all of us getting older, unloading and loading the deck seems to have become quite a chore! Has anyone thought about using the smaller European size deck in the US ? Is anyone using a small deck ? Mike

eric david conley · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2012, 05:11:59 PM »

When I look at the European carrier decks all I see is heavier and much harder to hit or maybe I should have said land on as I'm sure most of us could hit it just not sure where. I notice that they usually make it much higher than ours which makes it heavier per square foot of landing surface. You are sure right though as I always figured I would know when to stop flying carrier when I couldn't keep up with the planes but its turning out that it will be when I and many of my fellow carrier flier's cant get the deck off the trailer and then get it back on the trailer after the contest.
The deck could be made shorter by only having 4 arresting lines but then how would you fly Nostalgia? I've used decks that are much lower to the ground that are half or a third of the weight of some of the more conventional decks but seem to be hard to hook together. We could take off over the arresting lines but then all the planes would need 2+ inch wheels and there could be no part of the hook below the fuselage line and what about the Nostalgia events again? There was a day when putting up the deck was no big deal. Getting old is a bitch. Eric

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2012, 06:05:15 PM »

The Albuquerque club (of which I was a member at the time) made a ground level standard size deck out of sheets of plywood. It is easy to put up and can be transported in a pickup truck (unlike conventional decks). It was found that raising the end of the last panel (a-la British jump-jet carriers) was a good idea to assist in take-offs. Dick Perry may have the measurements and details. A good alternative to the standard built-up deck.

eric david conley · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »

I flew off that deck last year Pete. It is now pressed wood like the stuff they use in building homes, looked like it was 3/8" thick and double that at the edges. I guess its cheaper than playwood. I felt it looked like it may be hard to keep together and the rings where the arresting lines were attached were so so. Having said that we flew off of it all day with no troubles at all, zero and boy was it easy to load back up in the back of a pickup. Eric

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:15:27 PM »

That would be the one...I had forgetton that it was pressed wood rather than ply wood. Probably a good thing-not only cheaper but no splinters. Isn't it painted grey anyway? I missed last years contest but flew off it the previous two contests with no problems. Not a bad alternative to a traditional built up deck.

skyshark58 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2012, 09:57:14 PM »

Here in the Northwest the grass and ground is pretty moist and a sheet of plywood just layed on the ground will warp pretty quickly. A layer of black sheet plastic might help that. I notice that in England they put the deck on plastic pails to keep it off the moist ground. Mike

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2012, 12:19:52 AM »

Hmmm...didn't consider that. The Albuquerque contest is held on alphalt. As you say, a ground level deck may not be ideal for the Northwest. If the surface is level...elevate the deck on some 4x4's maybe?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2012, 03:48:46 AM »

I don't like the flush deck on pavement at all.

The lack of elevation;

The geometry and increases the angle of the lines vs the handle.
It also effectively makes the plane come in higher & steeper due to the lack of 4" or so of airspace below deck level.
Makes a short landing or deck strike hard to judge accurately.
Makes the deck area difficult to see from the center.
Takes a away a lot from the spectator appeal of the event.

Finally, the rigid, abrasive nature of pavement is hard a plane coming in under power.

Granted, in the absence of the old BIG clubs, handling the deck is a difficult or maybe impossible chore.

The Navy Nats was over 40 years ago. Enough of the homage to them. We should start up an AIR FORCE event with 25-powered jet fighters and NO deck, just a simulated paved runway. A parking lot or paved donut would do just fine. Of course we would keep the high/low task. Maybe the landing could be replaced with some basic aerobatics. Just for variety, do the top speed from a flying, not standing start. It would give a higher, more impressive score and take the emphasis off lightness.

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2012, 05:04:58 AM »

So...how about cutting each traditional section in half? Half the weight, not much more structure. It shouldn't be too difficult to keep the sections alligned.

Just a thought...

don Burke · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2012, 07:26:59 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on February 09, 2012, 03:48:46 AM

I don't like the flush deck on pavement at all.

The lack of elevation;
The geometry and increases the angle of the lines vs the handle.
It also effectively makes the plane come in higher & steeper due to the lack of 4" or so of airspace below deck level.
Makes a short landing or deck strike hard to judge accurately.
Makes the deck area difficult to see from the center.
Takes a away a lot from the spectator appeal of the event.

Around here we have flush concrete "decks" only. There are inserts in the pavement for the lines. At one of the sites the deck is an arc of concrete in a grass circle. Most of the time the "deck" is below the "sea level" of the surrounding grass. At both it's very hard to judge early landings and "splashes" due to the lack of elevation of the deck. The big pluses are not having to handle the logistics of a large plywood deck assembly, and a lot easier setup and teardown.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2012, 08:49:28 AM »

If we were not able to set up our deck on the concrete take off ramp I really doubt Tulsa would be flying carrier at all. I'm just a beginner but I sure don't see that much difference between flying off a plywood deck and our concrete strip. The short landing issue can easily be taken care of with a crepe paper streamer strung across the fantail, if you hit the streamer you are short.

Playing with Carrier brought allot of new enthusiasm to our club, many that were tired of flying boring patterns and a couple that were just sport flyers built Carrier airplanes and entered our Carrier event last year. It's fun and tickles me that we had as many as we did participate.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:08:40 AM »

The first carrier fun fly was held in Topeka KS at the old Gage Park Circle. The circle was marked where we wanted the deck. Arresting lines were stretched across at the appropiate spacing. Crepe paper at both ends per the book at the time. We had guys flying other peoples planes just to try it. It was no problem making landings or takeoffs. In fact a lot less casualties than when we finally had a built up deck.

skyshark58 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2012, 10:47:19 AM »

Here is the deck the Aussies use. Their web site has building instructions. I like the built in hand holds. Mike

skyshark58 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2012, 12:04:12 PM »

Here is another shot of a Aussie "mini" deck in action. The Brits use the same size deck and they both use .40 engines with required mufflers. Notice only 4 wires to catch, a bit more of a challenge than 10 wires on a 8 ft wide deck ! Mike

eric david conley · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2012, 03:14:19 PM »

Pete the deck is still natural (?) maybe were suppose to play like its a teak deck? Sure works OK. I think the cement deck in Wittier Narrows was once above the grass and over the years it has either sunk a little or the dirt and grass is slowly swallowing it. The worst part about a low deck is that when a low powered plane lifts off at the very end of the deck the tail goes down and walla there's a chunk of grass and dirt hanging on to the hook. Hard talking yourself out of that one. Never had a problem landing on a low deck, I always aim for the middle of the landing area. Eric

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #15 on:** February 09, 2012, 06:10:18 PM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on February 09, 2012, 03:48:46 AM

<snip>
We should start up an AIR FORCE event with 25-powered jet fighters and NO deck, just a simulated paved runway. A parking lot or paved donut would do just fine. Of course we would keep the high/low task. Maybe the landing could be replaced with some basic aerobatics. Just for variety, do the top speed from a flying, not standing start. It would give a higher, more impressive score and take the emphasis off lightness.

Max points for "greasing" a landing.

As an Airline Mechanic I can tell (so can alot of you) if a pilot is former Air Force or Navy just by the way they land an airliner. Air Force pilots can land with not so much as a ripple in your scotch & soda, Navy pilots slam them on the deck and try to make the first turnoff to the taxiway...

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2012, 07:42:35 PM »

How can you tell when a civilian pilot lands an airliner?
Chris...

john e. holliday · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2012, 12:21:08 PM »

Still waiting for an answer.

skyshark58 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2012, 01:53:24 PM »

Military pilot don't fly or land airliners, airline pilots are all civilians. Mike

Joe Just · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2012, 04:59:07 PM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on February 09, 2012, 07:42:35 PM

How can you tell when a civilian pilot lands an airliner?
Chris...

By the number of bounces. ex: Pittsburg,PA a record! 6 bounces! When the cabin crew announced that we had landed in Pittsburg one of the passengers hollered "Yea, 3 Times!"

Joe Just

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2012, 07:32:17 PM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on February 09, 2012, 07:42:35 PM

How can you tell when a civilian pilot lands an airliner?
Chris...

What Joe Just said... Just havin' a little fun! Relax

Ron Anderson · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2012, 11:53:42 PM »

Mike,
How old is older? (I thought age was a state of mind).......
Maybe that's why there was no deck at the Raider Roundup!!!!!

RON (former member of the Fireballs)

skyshark58 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2012, 12:57:10 PM »

That certainly was a factor along with the rain and no one to fly until the last minute, then it was too late and I had given up waiting around..Maybe this year will be better. $:-\$

Ron Anderson · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2012, 07:55:28 PM »

Mike,
Just what time was the last minute,Mark and I were there by 9:45 am, and you had already taken the deck down and gone home?I DON'T THINK SO!!! No mention on the flyer about notifying anyone that we were coming, it just said (Saturday Carrier all-day.) In case you think I'm pissed, your right. I drove about 400 miles for nothing!!! I
brought Mark and I'm the one that stayed in the car because I knew I was PISSED!!!

Thanks for nothing
RON (FORMER MEMBER OF THE FIREBALLS)

skyshark58 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2012, 10:30:10 PM »

FYI the deck was never put up. I went to get something to eat. When I got back you and Mark had come and gone. The stunt guys told me you guys had been there. If you had stuck around for a while we could have gone and got the deck unloaded it set it up and you could have flown your 4 flights and we could have took it apart,loaded it back into the trailer. But that is history. Certainly not the way I wanted it, but unfortunately it happened.