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Author Topic: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?  (Read 3522 times)

Joejust

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Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« on: February 13, 2009, 04:56:31 PM »
While I am aware that this kit is eligible for OTS and Classic PA I don't have or can not find reference to its being used as a profile carrier plane in the past. Was it ever used in Profile at a time that would make it eligible for Nostalgic Profile today?

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 05:42:34 PM »
I don't know if this story would qualify but I converted a Sterling Profile P-51 to carrier and flew it in competition in Southern California in the late sixties.  Never won with it but it was flown.  Power was an OS 35S.   Unfortunately, no photos were taken and the airplane is long gone. 
Sooo... if personal testamonies can be used as proof that this design was used as a carrier plane in the 60's, here it is.  I will be happy to write a letter to the NCS regarding this airplane if that would help establish its eligibility.  FWIW:  I also drew up the plans to convert a Sterling Yak 9 to an Airabonita but never got around to building it.   8)
(move post to Carrier Forum maybe?)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 06:21:02 PM by Pete Cunha »
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 07:17:41 PM »
Ok, so  I have read the rules and I dont really see where it says the design must have been used for CARRIER prior to the date, just that it was kitted prior to that date, did I miss that in the rules somewhere Joe?
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 09:54:04 PM »
Good point - my interpretation is that as it is written, a Sterling P-51 it could be flown in Nostalgia Carrier but would not be eligible for the 20 point historical model bonus.  I have run into this when I fly my "Buster-Cat", a Goldberg Buster modified into a Hellcat look-alike. It is eligible for nostalgia but not as a historical model and not getting that that 20 points hurts.  (Despite this, it has a very good contest record).  My guess is that would  take more than my sworn testimony to get the Sterling Mustang on the historical model list.  8)
Pete Cunha
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 10:03:23 PM »
Ok to be more clear, if the model was designed before the prescibed date, it qualifies, it doesnt say anywhere I see that it had to be flown as a carrier model to get the bonus points,,
heres a link to the NW nostalgia rules
http://flyinglines.org/rules.nost.carrier.html
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 10:22:34 PM »
"9. Combination of Classes: Class I and Class II may be combined for Nostalgia Navy Carrier. If classes are combined, Class I models will receive a five percent bonus on total score (multiply Class I total score by 1.05). Profile Class will not be combined with Class I and Class II in Nostalgia Navy Carrier."

The above copied/pasted from the page that Mark posted the link to. I don't know much about Carrier, but it looks to me like Profiles are not eligible in Nostalgia Navy Carrier. I'm guessing that Profile Carrier is new enough that it's not very Nostalgic?  Mike Potter would be a good person to ask, tho.  :! Steve
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 10:28:10 PM »
close steve, but since profile uses a different set of rules, it isnt combined with class one and two,, there is a nostalgia profile class,  what the rules point to is that profile will not combine with the others I think. i am fairly certain there is profile nostalgia,, however, your point is valid, Mike Potter would be the go to on this, how about pm,ing me his email steve ol buddy,?
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2009, 07:20:03 AM »
Actually Profiles are very much allowed and dominate Nostalgia Carrier.  Regarding allowable modifications though the rules state: "Tail hook and its location may be changed". That is "changed" not "added" .  Therefore if a tail hook was not included in the original design or documented in the era, it would rule that design out as a "Historical Model" and make it ineligible for the 20 point bonus. Sort of reading between the lines but I think it applies.  That being said, it is my interpretation and I hope it is is wrong and you are right. I wouldn't mind claiming an extra 20 points with my Buster-Cat at the next nostalgia contest. FWIW I accessed the rules through the Northwest "Flying Lines" on line newsletter.  8)
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2009, 07:51:23 AM »
I guess I will jump in here as I haven't looked at cutoff date for Nostalgia Carrier.  When I started carrier I was also flying rat race and combat.  There was only one class of carrier, "AMA Navy Carrier".   First contest I beat a Berkeley Gaurdian that was cut down in wingspan and powered with an old ignition 60 that was converted to glo.  I was flying Sterling Gaurdian with a Merco .49.  Not much on top end, but was very dependable.

I don't know who came up with Nostalgia, but, Richard Perry usually sponsors it at the NATS during the fun day of carrier.  He had a list of planes that would qualify.  To me nostalgia was the planes we flew in the 60's before they split up Scale carrier and added Profile for the newbies.  In the 70's there was several meets that I ran in which the Class I would out score the Class II and if you flew profile you did not fly scale.  Always had lots of competition.

But what is fun is on fun day carrier at the NATS is watching a couple of people fly sportsman in one class and fly regular in another class.  Don't know if they will do that again this year or not as I have not been around the carrier circle for too many years. 

Having fun,  DOC Holliday
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Offline Scott B. Riese

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 01:10:16 AM »
This is from Chuck Yeager's web page...

The P-51 and P-38 seem to have similar performance specifications. The P-38 had a great reputation in the Pacific, but you didn't seem to hear much about the P-51 in the Pacific Theater. Were there many P-51's in the Pacific? Why do you think they did not use P-51's for Naval carrier aviation? Using pilots with similar skills, how would a P-38 do in a dogfight up against a P-51?
There were P-51s in the Pacific, but after they had destroyed the German Air Force. Most of the P-38 aircraft in Europe were shot down by the Germans. They could not climb out of a dive, or run away from FW-190 or ME-262 aircraft. They could outrun the Japanese planes, so were very successful in the Pacific Theater. When the B-29s got to the Pacific, the P-51 was the only fighter that had the speed and range to escort them. The P-51 could outperform the P-38 in any area. The Navy flew a few P-51s off carriers but didn't buy it.
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Offline afml

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2009, 01:55:05 PM »
Shown here is a P-51D Mustang about to take-off from the deck of USS Shangri La circa November 1944. The aircraft made several arrested landings and catapult take-offs from the ship. The Mustang was one of a variety of aircraft evaluated for possible carrier use during the war.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/showphoto.php?photo=15856&cat=546&si=p-51&perpage=40&sortby=f

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/showphoto.php?photo=1813&cat=546&si=p-51&perpage=40&sortby=f

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/naval/naval.htm

Oh! Don't forget the C-130!!! HONEST!

http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/01/19/flightdeck-friday-flat-top-oddities

"Tight lines!"

Wes
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2009, 08:11:30 AM »
I have been slapped down on this so many times I hate to bring it up again.  How many guys would there be that would like to see a carrier contest like I was event director for locally back in the early 60's?   Not many, but, I remember bi-planes, modified kits and some published designs.  Then Sterling came out with the Gaurdian.  Everybody had one it seemed like.

There were also various sizes of the Gaurdian.  As far as Class I & II, I seen alot of better scores in Class I than in Class II.  Those of us that flew scale, stayed with scale and let the other guys fly profile.  The first NATS with profile had over 200 open entries which made it hard to get scale flights in.  They only had two decks and Ray Garrigas(hope its spelled right) kept things moving.  It was not soon after that it was opened up so you could fly all the carrier events.   The bottem dropped out it seemed.  Then the sliders came in while I was flying F2C and that was a low point in carrier.  Now at the NATS they are lucky to have enough entries to give away the trophies.

I like Richard's endeaver to try and bring Nostalgia carrier to the NATS.  I have not competed at the NATS in several years now, in fact have not flown a carrier for several years.  Have a brand new profile that the engine been run, but, has not been air borne yet.

I have often dreamed of a carrier contest on the line of VSC, but, get no support.  Can you imagine how many carrier designs are in the archives of the AMA site.  The main thing that shut down my inspiration to go ahead with it was the elimination of sliders and 30 degree max on level low speed laps.  Of course no flying backwards as how can you tell if a plane is only doing .0001 mph.  I myself have seen the early days when kits were modified to fly carrier with as in some areas if you  got high speed, low speed and a  landing you were in for getting something to take home.  You have to remember in the old days if it was not a scale airplane with full fuselage you did not get scale points.  Had a few profiles win a trophy and they were not 300 square inches either. 

Anyway I would let the Sterling P-51 fly profile carrier if they have a 3 view.   R%%%%  DOC Holliday

PS:All the preceding is my ramblings as the wife puts it.  jeh
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline roger

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 11:59:00 AM »
good for you... H^^ H^^ H^^ H^^ S?P

Offline Thomas Wilk

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 05:28:48 PM »
i have a photo of a B-25 with a hooked line on a carrier. 

Tom Wilk

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 08:04:01 PM »
Yup, no question about it - P-51's, B-25's and even U-2's have made arrested carrier landings.  The original post though was an inquiry regarding the Sterling Mustang's  eligibility for Nostalgia Carrier.  My take is that it could be flown in the event but would not be eligible for the 20 point historical model bonus as it was not designed as a carrier model and there is no proof of it ever having been flown as one "in the day".
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 08:41:49 PM »
Pete, I go back to my original confusion though, in the rules it really doesnt make it clear that the kit had to be designed as a carrier model. If you read it literally, it says the kit must have been produced before that cut off.
Still, I have a new direction now anyway so its not really that relevant.
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2009, 11:53:31 AM »

Again, I still maintain that the Sterling P-51 could be flown but would not be eligible the 20 historical model points. These, according to the Model Requirements section in the rules, are only awarded to models which "accurately reproduce actual nostalgia era Navy Carrier Models".  Until it can be proven that the Sterling P-51 was flown as a carrier model during the era, it's out of contention.

In another paragraph it is stated that the model must have been designed before Jan 1, 1978. Unfortunately the rules go on to state that no modifications of the original design except the ones listed are permitted. One of the listed changes are the re-location of a tail hook, not the addition of one, leaving the Sterling Mustang off the historical point list once again.

FWIW: Under the present rules, an MO-1 with fixed leadouts would be able to compete in the event.  If it were powered by a vintage engine, it would get the 20 pt non-schneurle bonus but not the historical model bonus.  8)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 08:32:18 AM by Pete Cunha »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 08:22:11 AM »
Do we really fly carrier any more the way it used to be flown?  I have been beaten at past NATS in Nostalgia by a plane that had a slider.  Guess he proved the slider came from that period.  Also planes hanging on the prop.  Need to get the G-S Bearcat tuned up and flying again and finish the SkyRay.  I enjoy it so much more when I can beat them flying my way.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2009, 03:37:15 PM »
In nostagia, if they don't ban sliders and use the old pre-1976 scoring system, then the event degenerates into just three more attempts at modern carrier.

Basically any full scale airplane that qualifies for carrier probably flew before 1976.  There aren't many new designs at all and very few that would have a chance.  

PS:
If the rule is "must have been kitted specifically as a Navy Carrier airplane", we have a very small number of planes to chose from.


« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 04:47:04 PM by Paul Smith »
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