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Author Topic: New Brodak Carrier events  (Read 534 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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New Brodak Carrier events
« on: February 20, 2019, 10:17:01 AM »
I scanned a preview of the 2019 Brodak Fly In paperwork.

I see that John Vlna, the category director for Carrier has added two new events.

These are Electric Carrier and Electric 15 Carrier.  I view this as along-overdue relief of the practice of mixing electric motors in with the popular 15 Carrier event.

I hope that the Navy Carrier Society (NCS) follows John's lead and creates a separate Electric 15 list in its Top Twenty standings.  Mixing unlimited motors with a strictly-limited engine size has never been a fair deal for the engine flyers.

Finally, they need to dream up a new name for the new event, like maybe "40-ounce carrier on 52' lines"  or "small motor carrier" because an electric more has nothing in common with a 2.5 cc engine.
Paul Smith


Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2019, 12:10:10 PM »
Paul
Actually there is nothing new at Brodak's in carrier. We have always allowed electric in sportsman and 15 profile. I just clarified that in the announcement, they are combined in these events as it has been NCS policy to do so.  We are not running the Electric AMA events since there is not enough interest at the Fly-in
john

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2019, 12:33:35 PM »
Strange.  I saw a document from the CD that looked like they'd been separated.  Maybe it was an error that was corrected.

Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2019, 06:41:22 PM »
John ,What's the difference between "profile" Carrier class  and "sportsman" Carrier class? Thanks ,Skip

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2019, 08:35:43 PM »
Skip
Profile refers to the AMA event, sportsman is unofficial. Main differences are mufflers are allowed and you may use electric or glow. Sportsman is viewed as an event for those that don't fly AMA events, i.e. A beginners event. See the Brodak site for the rule details.

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2019, 08:37:31 PM »
Strange.  I saw a document from the CD that looked like they'd been separated.  Maybe it was an error that was corrected.

Paul
Yeah maybe, it seems like there are little typos each year. I am looking forward to your fun carrier event.
John

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2019, 06:54:44 AM »
John on the Brodak site nothing is mentioned about engine size for Sportsman....and in AMA Profile must the model be a replica of an actual carrier aircraft?

The reason for all of this is that I'd like reuse my Frankinstein ship for fun carrier and if building time allows build one ship that qualifies for both Sportsman and AMA Profile.......I have a really good OS 32.

Online JoeJust

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2019, 09:15:54 AM »
Skip, one plane can not be used in both profile events. You have a choice of which you want to enter. In AMA profile you will receive an additional 10 scale points if you build a Brodak kit. (At least that has always been my understanding.)
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2019, 10:56:52 AM »
John on the Brodak site nothing is mentioned about engine size for Sportsman....and in AMA Profile must the model be a replica of an actual carrier aircraft?

The reason for all of this is that I'd like reuse my Frankinstein ship for fun carrier and if building time allows build one ship that qualifies for both Sportsman and AMA Profile.......I have a really good OS 32.
The Brodak rules should say all other AMA rules apply, except for exceptions noted, I'll check it. Engine size is the same as AMA profile. I don't have the rules in front of me but I think they specify a 6cc max. Nominally this is a .36 (5.8cc), but some engines, like Thunder Tiger are a bit over .36, so the rules we changed several years back... If the model is a replica of a carrier aircraft, again as specified in the AMA rules, then it gets 10 points.  If a Brodak kit it gets ten points independent of the scale bonus. But, only in sportsman. In 15 there is no scale bonus, just the 10 pts  for a Brodak Kit. You can only fly either AMA or Sportsman but not both. Oh, and to clarify the muffler rule. ; any class can use a muffler, but you must use 10% fuel. We don't supply fuel, it is an honor thing.The OS 32 is a good engine for profile. I even used one n Nostalgia Class I for many years.

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2019, 11:00:42 AM »
Skip, one plane can not be used in both profile events. You have a choice of which you want to enter. In AMA profile you will receive an additional 10 scale points if you build a Brodak kit. (At least that has always been my understanding.)
Joe
Joe, as I noted, to Skip, you can only enter either sportsman or AMA. The  Brodak bonus is only in the unofficial events. 

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2019, 12:40:58 PM »
Here is the profile glow engine rules from the AMA,  .3661  is 6cc (actually 5.9993....). I also check the AMA rules are oberved statement, it is there several times. Not electric are specified a bit differently, see the rule book. We allow pressure in Sportsman at the FlyIn.
3.3.1. 
The engines in the Profile Navy Carrier event shall have a
maximum total displacement of .3661 cubic inch. Two-stroke
cycle engines must be of the front-intake type. No pressure fuel
systems will be permitted[/i]; however, the vents in the tank may be
pointed forward in the air stream.  (Note that CL General,
paragraph 11.1. states that 60% of the displacement of a four-
stroke engine is taken for competition classification so that a 10cc
[.61 cu. in.] four-stroke may be used.)

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 01:21:25 PM »
All thanks for jumping into the discussion. I have to chuckle a bit regarding the "honor" system regarding fuel in a "Speed" event.  I'm thinking let's get John Brodak to supply a gallon of 10% fuel and use a pump around. Makes more sense to me.......Just saying'.........Cheers,Skip

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2019, 09:01:10 PM »
Skip
Are you implying modelers are not honorable? After all it is primarily a fun fly.

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2019, 08:17:50 AM »
The 10% requirement is only for engines which use a muffler or 'exhaust extension'.  If you are really trying to go fast, you aren't going to use a muffler anyway.  If you use a tuned muffler, you are most likely to be set up for 10% due to MOST contests requiring the use of supplied fuel.  That's what you practice with and that's what you are set up to use.  Experience shows that the Honor System works just fine.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2019, 10:01:27 AM »
mike
At the brodak flyin  use of 10% fuel is asked for on all carrier events. It is based on a honor system, I don't have any way of enforcing it.
Quote from the FlyIn brochure
Carrier: Starts Monday 8:00 am Runs Over To Tuesday
.15 Carrier -  Profile Carrier -  Sportsman Carrier -  Carrier I & II Combined
Profile Glow, Scale 1 & 11 Combined Glow, .15 Profile and Sportsman Glow or Electric
A contestant may enter Sportsman or the regular Profile event, not both
In the Sportsman and .15 Profile event the contestant will be awarded an additional 10
points bonus if they use a Brodak kit
All contestants will use 10% fuel
All other rules for Profile Carrier will apply



John

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2019, 01:22:18 PM »
John ,I was teasing about the fuel.I know it's all about the fun factor.  Meanwhile I discovered that my OS 32 fits on the same mounting footprint as the Magnum 25 engine that I flew with last year. Old Frankenstein is going to be cooking' out there in Sportsman!......Skip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2019, 04:38:20 PM »
The 10% requirement is only for engines which use a muffler or 'exhaust extension'.  If you are really trying to go fast, you aren't going to use a muffler anyway.  If you use a tuned muffler, you are most likely to be set up for 10% due to MOST contests requiring the use of supplied fuel.  That's what you practice with and that's what you are set up to use.  Experience shows that the Honor System works just fine.

Correctomundo, sir.  By AMA rules all carrier events have unlimited nitro in the absence of tuned pipes.  Mr. Vlna submits the results to the NCS Top 20 so he needs to run all events IAW established rules.

Furthermore, 15 Carrier is run according to an accepted and PUBLISHED set of rules that limit neither nitromethane NOR exhaust/pressure systems.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2019, 04:44:10 PM »
mike
At the brodak flyin  use of 10% fuel is asked for on all carrier events. It is based on a honor system, I don't have any way of enforcing it.
Quote from the FlyIn brochure
Carrier: Starts Monday 8:00 am Runs Over To Tuesday
.15 Carrier -  Profile Carrier -  Sportsman Carrier -  Carrier I & II Combined
Profile Glow, Scale 1 & 11 Combined Glow, .15 Profile and Sportsman Glow or Electric
A contestant may enter Sportsman or the regular Profile event, not both
In the Sportsman and .15 Profile event the contestant will be awarded an additional 10
points bonus if they use a Brodak kit
All contestants will use 10% fuel
All other rules for Profile Carrier will apply



John

My reading of this is that John's 10% rule is directed to Sportsman Profile only.
As an event director, I routinely experience a fellure to communicate with the publisher of the flyers.
Paul Smith

Offline john vlna

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2019, 10:00:53 AM »
Folks,

If you read the AMA rules book, and the rules as posted on the Brodak site, you should not have a problem with any of the events. The Nitro-muffler rule is a bit confusing, but under the AMA rules almost any muffler or tuned pipe may only use 10% fuel. Open face is unlimited, but Brodak has always asked for 10% as a local policy. Sportsman and 15 are not AMA events. I follow NCS recommend rules, but as unofficial events the rules can be different from one contest to the other. For example, I allow muffler pressure in the unofficial events. The AMA rules and  most unofficial carrier events around the country do not allow muffler pressure in profile.

My goal is always to get people to fly and have fun.

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2019, 02:16:07 PM »
The CD or event organizers are free to implement any rules deviations or restrictions they wish.  If there is a possible safety issue, the rules deviations should be run by the Safety committee when the sanction is issued. That is why the sanction has a section for Unofficial Events and rules deviations.  Otherwise, it's the organizer's prerogative to use rules which will maximize the turnout or the enjoyment of the competitors.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: New Brodak Carrier events
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2019, 01:14:31 PM »
Just for the record I did a test flight with the OS 32 on my Frankenstein ship and I thought she'd drill me into the ground. Not used to going that fast! See you guys real soon.....Skip


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