NCS Forum

[john e. holliday]

At the NATS during the NCS meeting I mentioned this site that Robert has.  I have just come back from Google trying to find the results of NC at the NATS.  Might get more people if they knew what was going on.  Otherwise you have to be a dues paying member to get the newsletter.  The NATS Newsletter does not have the results of Saturdays unofficial events.  As a few know too well, when making suggestions to the powers to be in the NCS you get put down very quickly.  I know the NCLRA(racing society) has electronic newletter that you down load.  PAMPA is talking about the same thing or a CD in place of Stunt News, as postage and printing are getting out of sight.  PAMPA's alternative is raising dues.  I even suggested a dues increase to the NCS.  Needless to say I paid for 3 years and kept quiet.  Enough said,  DOC Holliday

PS:Anybody have a left hand .15 engine?  Reasonbly priced for less than a $100.00.  jeh

[L0U CRANE]

John,

I'd thought Fox Mfg might have a reverse rotation shaft for their BB Schneurle 15, but on-line catalog doesn't show one. Might be a few around the factory, somewhere, if you have a friend inside. If it were possible, that could be a nice choice. Most everyone has a pretty good Fox BB 15 Sch, so cost of conversion would only be the shaft, a CW-turning prop, and a brief re-break-in...

ENYA 4-bolt front end engines can convert to CW rotation by turning the front end 90° either way. ...At least the plain bearing ENYAs with a bolt pattern that allows it... Unknown: what effect that has on the intentional biases of shaft port open and close times. Most likely would be down in power from an LH Fox 15 BB Sch, if there were such, and from other newer strong 15s.

Gerry Deneau preferred the CCW rotation Cox/K&B/(now RJL) Conquest 15s, which DO howl! RJL may have them in stock, but LH shaft availability? And, keeping cost under $100?

Almost offered you either or both of a pair of old Cox Medallion 15 reed valve engines, but those were pretty lame from Day One, long, long ago. Parts could be a problem... But, they could turn the wrong way...

I know LH rotation offers good things in Profile, possibly also in Class 1 & 2 Carrier - the torque kick on throttle-up tends to roll the model out, not in, like CCW rotating props. Is there that much to be gained in .15 Carrier? Gimmicks are restricted. Well, sure, it is possible to rig a very basic Carrier model to hover/hang, if you insist...

[Paul Smith]

I wish the "powers that be" would just ban LH cranks in 15 Class, along with all the other stuff that's already banned.

Alllowing just the flipper, gas pedal, and  hook to move was great !   Now red line the LH crank and you'll have an event.  Otherwise, it's be another 3-man world. 

[john e. holliday]

Thanks Lou, I may just go ahead with one of the Fox 15 Schnuerle stock. 

Paul, it doesn't matter if it LH or RH it still takes practice to win.  Also a little bit of luck. 

Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Paul Smith]

Sure it always takes practice to win...

With LH cranks, a lot of engines are X-ed out because you can't get the cranks for them.
The selection props is reduced, along with the chance of getting them at a good price.
If you can get a crank for a particular engine it costs money.

So those few who still fly the event get the Low speed to be a few MPH slower.

Is that a good thing for participartion?

Is the goal to increase cost and reduce headcount?

[eric conley]

Fox never did make a CW crank for the 15. There was a lot of talk about it but nothing ever happened. MVVS made a 15 engine with a CW crank for a while but all the re-sellers say they cant get them anymore ( I think this is BS on the part of the re-sellers). Wiley made a after market CW crank for the Conquest that Bill Bischoff used but they dried up after Wiley passed away. I use the MVVS with a CW crank and find it to be a little underpowered but OK. Before the MVVS I used a Conquest with CCW crank but after breaking 2 of the CW cranks (all I could get my hands on) I used the stock Conquest with good results. The Conquest seems to me to be the stongest 15 engine out there for Carrier and once you become a pretty good flyer (practice, practice, practice) makes almost no difference whether its CW, or CCW.
The torque kick on throttle-up that LOU speeks of is better in the CW engine BUT I think you will find the better flyers handle the throttle in such a way that there is little or no KICK when they throttle up (practice, , ). I dont have never used the newer Fox 15 so dont know how powerful they are but if they have a few ponies in them they might be fine (practice, cant say this enough) in this event.
Competitive Carrier events like all of the other events in CL flying are not for the cheapest engines, props, ect.. I always get the feeling that a lot of people think carrier is a make-up event that you fly as a pick-up event when they go to a contest to fly Scale, Speed, Race, Stunt, or Combat.

[bfrog]

Just have to put my 2 cents worth in here. 15 Carrier is definitely not a beginners event even though a lot of people think it is. It is much easier to fly a 36 profile plane than the 15. I always recommend the larger sized plane for someone that is interested in starting carrier.Most people think since its a smaller plane its easier to handle, that is definitely not the case. I know there are some that think the addition of a slider in 36 profile adds a lot of complication to the model. My experience is that once you have worked out the bugs it adds tremendously to the ease of low speed and makes the event more fun. It is more than worth the effort. If you are not of a mind to add a slider, fly in Sportsman and do the best you can.

As for the CW crank, it does have its advantages, especially in 15. My 15 electric runs CW and I find I have more line tension at low speed than my glow 15. It still comes down to practice and balance of the airplane. The better the balance the easier it is to fly. By balance I mean the trade off between high speed stability and low speed hanging. This is a combination of line rake and CG. To get the plane to fly in both modes you have to try different combinations and find out what works best. Again its trial and error and practice. Once you get it right, or as close as you can, its much easier to get better low speed without sacrificing too much high speed.

[Paul Smith]

Of course the backwards crank & pusher prop enhances performance.  No argument there.

The point is: If everybody does it, the performance is again equalized, just at a higher cost. 
The only benefit is higher numbers of points and lower numbers of people.  Is that what the carrier commmunity wants?

------------------------

As I see it, Class II is clearly a big bucks, money is no object, Top Gun event.  So throw money on the fire and let 'er rip.  If you want to fly a $3,000 airplane, fine, I'll hide in the cage and time it.

But each of the others events started out as relief for Class II, and pretty soon devolved into yet another all-out money war. 

Begineers, no. But maybe a relief from the expremes of the other events.

[bfrog]

Profile 36 does not have to be big bucks to be competitive. Here is proof. Randy Bush flies an older Bearcat model that he converted to carrier. He uses a stock Thunder Tiger 36 motor. He has been flying carrier for about 1 year now. At the event in Oregon earlier this year he posted a score of 342+ points. He is currently #4 on the NCS top twenty list, just behind 3 very experienced people and ahead of many other very experienced people.

He did not spend $3000 on his equipment, he did not build a high tech, gimmicky model. He put together a reasonable package and practiced with it. He trimmed it so that it would fly well. He is getting excellent results. No he is not #1 but he is very competitive. You don't have to set National records to do well in the event and HAVE FUN. It does not take tons of money, a special MO-1, a trick Nelson motor or high nitro fuel. You just have to build, PRACTICE and fly.

I can't think of any way to make the point more clear. You can talk or post all the whining you want but the results speak for themselves.

[Paul Smith]

Profile Carrier : Sure you have to build, fly, and practice.

But first, buy a Nelson 36 with a throttle and get a Left Hand crank for it, find some pusher props of the necessary prize.  How much for the engine & prop?  Maybe $500 all in?

----------------------------------------

When the event had some realistic rules, I built, tested, practiced, adjusted, tuned, and took 1st & 3rd place in the Nats. 
Did it take work ? Sure it did.  But money and custom machining was not a barrier.
Total engine cost for three different stock plain bearing 35's : under $75.

Today's event is less popular and no better than it was in the 1969-1975 era, just exponentially more expensive and intentionally made exclusive by allowing equipment that is not commonly available.

[john e. holliday]

I see the original intent of this post has gotten off course.  I see a few people are getting carrier going again in their area of the country.  But, carrier is like all the other events.  if you like it you will fly it.  In my younger years it was combat and rat race.  Carrier was just an extra event.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[L0U CRANE]

John,

Thanks for the needed reality-check! We have a hobby, which is something we choose to do because there's something about it we like. Just what that attraction is, can be as different as the individuals who take part.

There are hard standards in events like each of the Carrier classes, Official or not. Things can be measured, accurately, and performance that measures out better is unarguably worth whatever reward/award is there.

When competition can be 'hard-measured' like that, we can enjoy ever better developments. Positive results win, and trying to fly well enough to win is one of the basic reasons to compete. Again, with clear standards, not winning is not so much a put down, as it is an opportunity to see how to improve your own efforts.

...and to evaluate whether any extra effort stays attractive to you. If it suddenly takes, as Paul suggests, money instead of craftsmanship and flying skill, that might reduce the attractiveness to a significant degree. But it still can be a compelling inspiration to try harder...

Stunt is more subjective than objective. Impression on the judges is where the scores come from - not hundredths of a second, how long a 60° hover angle is exceeded, or whatever. Even there, in CLPA, a lot of 'standardization' has been achieved - but it is still judged subjectively.

If we don't enjoy flying a particular event, why should we bother? If there are generally agreed areas where rules can be improved, discussion, and people willing to try their ideas out in actual local contests, go a long way toward winning general acceptance.

For those who enjoy reaching for the ultimate legal and possible performance within the event rules, I'm strongly in favor of encouraging them to do so. It's a pleasure to see Eric C's slow flight: VERY impressive! My personal opinion that such angles and times are not "realistic" always includes my realization that CL Carrier models are NOT the human carrying prototypes they may resemble. They are purpose designed and engineered aircraft, to very definite specs and requirements. And the best (fliers and) models meet the far cutting edge of that technology - whether at great or humble equipment cost.

Beauty is as beauty does...

[Dave Rolley]

Any discussion about the cost years ago compared to the cost today is irrelevant without applying some type of conversion factor to the numbers.

For instance, the US Government Consumer Price Index webpage indicates that an item valued at $100 in 1967 would be about $616 today.  If the item was $100 in 1982 it would be about $205 today.

I know that I had to think long and hard about the ST C-35 PDP I bought for Profile Carrier in 1976.  With a new baby, I went so far as to take a part-time job so that engine didn't come out of the household budget.

While the approximately $250 for one of Henry's current AAC Ball Bearing .36 gems is expensive, it is a vast improvement over that plain bearing Iron/Steel piston and liner engine from 1976.

As mentioned, a Thunder Tiger 36 would do a real nice job of pulling a light Profile Carrier model around the circle.  Especially at approximately $76.00

http://www.thundertiger4u.com/pro36-aircraft-p-7525.html

One of the long held tenets around any horsepower event has been "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

In auto racing circles one of the comment I often heard is "Nothing beats cubic inches except cubic dollars."

Why do you think any competitive activity would be different?

BTW, my son won a Profile Carrier trophy at Wichita 6 or 7 years back with a Deneau designed (and built) F4F Wildcat using the same C-35 engine I mentioned above.  But it took some practice on his part to get to that point.

Dave 

[Paul Smith]

To be honest about it, the original post carried two different themes,


1. Getting Nats results, and

2. Getting a LH crank for a 15 Carrier model.

One need not get into the subject of inflation over the past four decades to debate the wisdom of allowing the 15 event to go down the same mega-bucks trial as the other three nearly-extinct classes.   

It's true, you could fly Profile carrier with a $75 engine.  If anybody actually did, then the guys with LH Nelsons would have somebody to beat.

[Dave Rolley]

Yes, you are right.  This got dragged way off topic.

15 Carrier started on the mega-bucks trail close to day one.  The first 15 Carrier model used either a HB 15 or a Fox 15.  The second 15 Carrier model used an OPS 15.  The third used a Cox Conquest.

So it isn't something new.  I doubt is spells the end of 15 Navy Carrier today any more than it did 30 years ago.

Dave

[Paul Smith]

Using expensive engines isn't the end of the event, if they're expensive engines that anybody can buy. 

The fatal mistake is allowing parts with very exclusive availablity (Left-Handed cranks and props) to sneak in.   If you need your own machine shop, or employment at NASA to make a winning part, that effectively shoots the event in the head.

The Racing group, NCLRA, has recognized and dealt with this truth very well.  They have several events where you do anything you want, including design and build a whole new one-of-a-kind engine.  But they also have limited events for Fox 35 Stunts, Black Widows, and LA 25's. 

I believe that the Denver club had the right idea for 15 Profile Carrier, but they just left one loophole when they wrote the rules.  They should have banned left-handed engines on the downstroke, along with sliders, rudders, flaps, and other gizmos.   It's not too late.  Better to disallow a few cheater cranks than make 15 profile into another 3-man event.

[Dave Rolley]

Actually it wasn't a loophole.  They didn't want any restrictions on the engine other than displacement because they wanted folks to mount an engine and come fly.

The bottom line is you think there is a problem and I don't think there is a problem.   

Even if there is a problem blamed on left hand crankshafts, the real issue is there are folks that drop out of an event over a technology they will never see at their local contest and might not see even if they attended the Nationals.  I've seen folks drop out over a rumor of something. 

The neat thing about competition with model airplanes is nothing is certain until the last event concludes.  For instance the team that set a new world record for the 100 lap heat in F2C (Team Race) (3:00.8 minutes) at the recent European Championships didn't make it to the final race.

Dave

[john e. holliday]

Dave:

So where is the report of the travels that you and your family have made?

                                                                 DOC Holliday

[Dave Rolley]

Doc,

Charlie and I leave next Wednesday.  We'll be back on Aug 15th.  Lots of work going on.  New bearings in the engines, new cylinder and piston sets, cleaning the carbon off of the one that isn't getting the new blind bore cylinder, models getting repairs, lines getting made, props getting deflashed and balanced, and sleep being forsaken.

I'll start running in the reworked engines tomorrow.  They should all be broken in by Monday evening.  The models are almost done.  Just some last touches on the newest one.

We'll get there Thursday morning.  Practice on Friday.  Contest Saturday and Sunday.  More practice the following week and another contest the next weekend.  We'll probably get more F2C racing in the two weeks than we have done in 3 years.  But it is going to be FUN!!!!

By the time we get back maybe I'll know how to pit one of those things.  Once we are home it is only 6 weeks to the team selection finals in Dallas.

later,

Dave