Well for me things have changed since I retired.   Not only financial but physical.  I now have muscles that don't work like they used to.  My granddaughter says I walk funny now.   The doctor says he can't do nothing for me and won't send me to another doctor.  Also trying to fly carrier is not so much fun flying by oneself or having to drive 70+ miles to fly with someone and/or getting blowed out by the wind or rain.  The health/physical is the main reason for not attending the NATS.   As I told Brenda and Melvin they would probably put me on the bus after the first night.  If I ever get things worked out both physically and  financially I will be back.

Pete, Thanks for getting the conversation going on this important subject. I hope that you will take the following in the manner  it is offered. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth.
First, I stopped going or working at the Nats because it lost its fun element.  To anyone reading this that has worked on a team for Carrier they might agree that 3 days of intensive work as a timer, pull tester, or center judge can really take any fun out of the chore.  With the weather in Muncie over the years showing the heat or rain and certainly the humidity it is not a encouragement for somebody to pay their way to sit for  three whole days trying to do a good job.After the 95 Nats in the Tri-Cities, WA, I decided that I more than likely would not go to another Nats. And the choice of Muncie as the permanent Nats base left me convinced.

7 years ago I decided to give the Brodak Fly-in a try and discovered to my joy that this particular event was really a lot of fun!  Even those two days out of the next five that had rain, there never was a time when I could not easily get under shade and/or out of the Sun and stay comfortable. While the Carrier competition at Brodak's never really took on the numerous high talented flights on sees at the Nats there was enough of that skill flying there to give a representative show to the watching public and participants in other events that would drop by to see what Carrier was all about.  What was readily apparent was the fun that was taking place at the Carrier site.  The team of workers worked with fun, grace and skill and the director on occasion when needed filled in as the center judge.  There are videos (vhs) available that show nearly all the flights in Carrier for the past years and are available for a modest price. Viewing them will prove my feelings about that contest.
Next, and here comes the real negative reasons in my mind why the Nats has a dying entry level in Carrier.  Somewhere in my past I have read the following thread and have to wing it a bit as I can not find the thread on either SN or SS forums.  "13 events for less than 13 people entering Carrier at the Nats? What a joke!"  The quote may have mentioned 12 events not 13, but the basic thoughts are still relivent. I acan back up the interest there is in Carrier, having sold over 100 profile kits in the last 5 years.  along with that I have sold dozens of my own design 3-line handles as well.  Not one of these kits have shown up in Muncie.  Several have shown up at some local and regional Carrier competition.  What does that mean?  Well Pete in my mind it means that a lot of CL fliers are having a lot of fun without any desire to go to the Nats and see the same few win all the time.  It is a bit humerous to see more Carrier entries at the Portland, OR Tune up in April than there are at the national Championship contest.
When I first joined the  Navy Carrier Society in 1984 there were well over 100 members. Now we have only 30 or so that enjoy a beautiful news letter.  When I ran the Postal Carrier Contest for three years I had winners that declined to take the offer of a free membership in the NCS.  A few did and a couple that did never received any notice of their membership. Perhaps it might just mean the NCS must somehow change.
Well Pete there's just a few of my thoughts.  I hope they are not taken poorly.  I will end this by saying that while the Nats and I will never meet in Muncie I will do all I can to promote the flying of Navy Carrier. It is so much fun!
Joe Just

Hi Pete,

I am surely not one to have the answers to the declining participation.  But, as one who has an interest in carrier I can relate to the event which I have competed in at the NATS.  I fly CLPA as my main interest.  I am not very good when compared to the top of the Open class, but I have enjoyed the event for over 50 years now.

Personally even I have a problem in making it to the NATS for the 7 days, or so, that CLPA requires for participation.  The cost of the travel, room, food, etc., is almost unbearable.  I cannot have my wife go, work prohibits that.  Being on a retirement income, the funds are hard to justify.  Add to that the physical problems that aging can bring to some people, the NATS are not a viable option.

My last trip to the NATS as a competitor was actually in 1996 (first time in Muncie.  Before that it was 1993.  That is a LONG time ago, now!  I did get back as a spectator in 2004 for the CLPA WCs and NATS.  I could not stay the entire time.  Before retiring, work constraints prohibited attending many times.

So, the long time participants are often in the same boat I am.  Physical problems and fixed income.

I have been to the Brodak Fly In twice.  The overall atmosphere was MUCH different.  It IS a contest with many events, but the "pure enjoyment" factor was much higher.  The NATS seemed like a very serious endeavor like it should be, after all we are picking National Champions.

What have I added to the "solution"?  Probably not much, but I might just be in the category of those who do not find it able to attend the NATS.

Bill Little

I first flew carrier in 1990, so I am not against the 60 degree slow flight like many. I think the basic problem is the age of CL fliers. We are older , and have more issues. I missed the NATS this year due to medical problems.

I like going, it is a contest, not a fun fly so there is more pressure, but you can still have fun. The last few years have been more like a local contest with people helping and flying. The difference is the skill level, not me, them.

How to get people to come, I have no idea. I go because I like competing even if I m not the bets out there. Flying carrier is challenging which is why I fly it.

I particularly like the unofficial events, and nowadays electric. The NATS is one of the few within driving range for me that has Nostalgia and electric. Huntersville is the other.

John

Personally I would drop Navy Carrier at the NATS. It surely is not economically sustainable and not very well attended. Part of the problem is that the interest in the events, is basically east coast, south east, west coast and southwest. There aren't that many flying NC there either. No support from the middle of the country because it's basically not there any more. In the late 60's and early seventies there were two contests for carrier in Cleveland, Detroit, Dayton, Cincinnati and Indianapolis per season. Not any more because hardly anyone does it in those areas. I just flew in a contest in Detroit, two guys from Detroit and three from Cleveland. We do it twice a year and it's getting tough. Now, you throw in the continuous rise of R/C, shake a box modelers and just plane economics on top of that and you are going nowhere. Why would anybody travel from the previously mentioned places to Muncie for a contest. NATS or not. I can have more fun at Brodaks until John says it's over and then that contest goes away also. I have news for you, it's not to far away when the AMA tells us all that control line can no longer be supported at Muncie. Get over it! Save your money and time.
Thanks
Wayne

You never ever want to drop a NATS event.   If you do it will never be thought of again.   I can see why guy/gals don't fly  some events.   Especially the events that were supposed to draw new blood to the event.   Yes, I flew sportsman profile carrier but will never again at the NATS.   if you go back thru the history of the last decade of the NATS you will see where individuals were flying the AMA Class I & II events plus profile and then flying the events that were supposed to be for the sportsman. 

I still say the demise of carrier participation was when it was allowed that contestants could fly all three classes of carrier.   Myself I never thought of profile as I liked the scale planes.   At the time the line sliders came to be and the 60 hanging I was not involved in carrier. 

Sometime tomorrow a new committee will offer some words onn how to not only save the Nats but increase Carrier participation.  I'm having a bit of a time trying to make sure all the ideas get put into their proper space.  All I can offer now is " it couldn't hurt to give it a read!"
Joe

That's a very interesting idea. Might work.

After giving this a lot of thought here is my idea. 

Take the NATS to the fliers. The NW, SW and Mid-east get pretty good turnouts at their carrier contests. Separate the Carrier NATS Events from the AMA NATS. There is a precedent, the indoor is not held in Muncie. Rotate the NATS between the NW, Arizona, maybe California, Huntersville, and New Jersey, and Muncie. At least anywhere there are strong local contests and interest in carrier. 

The locals could include other events, scale, stunt , combat etc. Having a National level event might help increase participation in those events also. So the schedule might be; NW, Huntersville, Arizona, Muncie.

If participation goes up other actions like skill classes could be considered.

This should automatically get more fliers to the deck, since these local events typically have more contestants than the NATS is getting today.

John

John, I have no problem with that either.
Thanks
Wayne

Good Idea John!  Now, we have to get the NCS management to agree.  It must be put to the whole membership an d the newsletter is the only way to get that done.  In effect, it would be telling the AMA to go suck eggs (however politely we do it).  Would they be willing to have Carrier competition only every 4 to 6 years? If the NCS refuses to have a vote, then what?  Also, Expert and Sportsman class have to be part of any Nats event, with different awards, etc.
Joe

I think the AMA would love it if they didn't have to schedule ANY CL events.  After all I think the total attendance at the CL NATS may be less than that in one RC combat or Pylon event.

Don't forget about those who like to see and / or participate in other events. The rotating venue scheme would eliminate that opportunity.

This has been a good discussion and maybe it is time to summarize what I have learned here. Of course, the big thing is that we are all older and less able or interested in serious travel to compete in contests. And for so many, the fun of flying in a contest with friends greatly outweighs the fun of competing at a national championship. I, too, enjoy some contests a lot (such as the Phoenix contest going on right now,) even more than the Nationals. But a national championship is the highest achievement in these events and for a serious competitor, it is worth working hard for. I do understand that a lot of people just don't want to put in the effort needed to compete on a national level, and that's just fine. They can and should enjoy the local and regional contests and keep those contests strong.
The idea that there are too many events at the Nationals is a difficult one. It starts with three official classes and these are the ones with the greatest emphasis in terms of operations and they are the most important.Then you get to the provisional and unofficial events and, when you start asking around, people say, "No, don't drop that event, it's really fun and I love to go there and fly it." So the events stay. The good thing is the only cost is the time and effort of those working to support the events, and there are people willing to help others have the events they enjoy. That's how we get others to help with the events we enjoy.
The 2013 Nats was missing some regulars, people who were not able to come this year but have in most past years and who plan to come next year. I can think of David and Michael Smith, Dale Gleason, Dick Perry and Ted Kraver and expect most of these people to be back in 2014. So we may not really be hurting quite so badly for active participants as 2013 indicated. I have participated in the Nats Planning Meeting for several years and the question of the minimum participation over the years required to keep the events going at the Nats does come up. We are nowhere near that minimum, so we are not in any danger that AMA will drop Carrier from the Nats.
I believe that all of us would prefer the Nats rotate around the country as in the past before settling in Muncie. This certainly has a bad effect on participation. When we first moved to Muncie, we were told that we would still occasionally rotate to other venues. Well, that never happened, and many of us are disappointed. Some of us still bring it up with AMA, but so far that seems to be like talking to a brick wall.
The idea of having the Carrier Nats move around without the rest of the events is appealing in many ways but also has problems. First, as was mentioned, separating Carrier from the other events would mess up those who also participate in both at the Nats. Of this year's Carrier entrants, five entered other events at the Nats and at least two more, Ted and Dale, intend to come in 2014 and also enter other events. So more than half the contestants enter other events. That's a problem. The next problem is that the NCS doesn't get to choose where the Carrier Nats is held: that is reserved for the AMA Executive Committee to decide, not NCS or even the AMA Nats management people. So getting the Nats moving around the country occasionally, perhaps the entire CL Nats if we could, is something we have to convince the Executive Committee to do. I suggest individuals talk to  their AMA Vice Presidents about this and see if they would be supportive. Doing the groundwork first with individual contacts with the VPs is much more likely to give us an idea of what they might support than by having the NCS go to the entire Executive Council first with such a proposal. We would need a core of supportive VPs receptive to any such proposals before we would have a chance. Individuals could use their existing relationships with their VPs to seek support, or to find out if there will be none.
Another idea might be to have an annual NCS Championships contest. NMPRA has done this for decades for pylon racing and it has worked. Would this work for NCS? I'm not convinced. First, would it cannibalize the Nats, so people would go the the NCS Championships in their neighborhood and skip the Nats? Second, would it really be a championship contest, or would it just be the same regional contest with a new name? People can see through that sort of thing pretty easily. Maybe we should consider designating a "Contest of the Year" where we encourage everybody to make the trip to one of these contests, not as a championship but as a special year to make the regional contest have a special turnout. Each of these regional contests might expect a larger turnout but it would still be a regional contest. Who knows, perhaps a bunch of the guys who do not want to compete at the national championship level would enjoy traveling to and competing in a regional contest instead. Think of it as a rotating, Brodak-type contest where the emphasis is on fun and camaraderie rather than determining a national champion. Perhaps it could have more than the official events by including some of the unofficial or provisional events as well and spread the events over more than one day so people weren't completely exhausted trying to fly everything all on one day.

Pete

Pete
I think your Second sentence gets to the heart of the issue, and unfortunately there is not much we can do about the aging of CL fliers.
I have always had fun at the NATS and hope to be back next year.
John

Pete
I think your Second sentence gets to the heart of the issue, and unfortunately there is not much we can do about the aging of CL fliers.
I have always had fun at the NATS and hope to be back next year.
John

John
We can promote CL to a younger crowd.  My boys are 14 and 16, they got me into CL and prefer CL over RC.  And we have been selling CL to young kids and younger RC flyer.  I've found there's a bunch of teens and 20ish guys that want to learn to actually build their own planes and enjoy flying CL. Some have never heard of CL and have never seen a scratch built plane.

John
I don't really take it as you being negative.  I have been trying to get more people involved, this year I put about 20 kids up on their first CL'ers at the air fair and had several guys from the RC club build Ringmasters and come fly with us at the Ringmaster Fly a thon.  Several more RC'ers would have come but they rescheduled a float plane contest they had already paid for.  I enjoy flying CL and working with kids, it's a good fit.  Here's my newest recruit, my two year old nephew. He loves Uncle's planes.

There are a lot of people who would like skill classes, but are waiting for someone else to get started. May I suggest that skill classes could be a very simple item to try. We already do it in Profile with Sportsman and Open, so we have a pretty fair idea of how that might work. What I have observed is that, with self-selected entry, nobody has ever entered Sportsman who should have entered Open. It's just never, ever happened in the many contests I have participated in that have offered a Sportsman class. All contest directors/managers/organizers should consider offering Sportsman if they are not already doing so. We do that for Sportsman Profile and find that there are usually too few entries to make it worthwhile on a strictly numerical basis, but we do it anyway. If you have a contest with enough entries to have Sportsman in Class 1 and 2 as well, why not offer that? Use the same basic distinction between Sportsman and Open that is used for Profile without trying to add rules for a cutoff score or sliders or hanging. Please, just do it, don't wait for somebody else to do it. At your contest, give Sportsman a try in as many classes as you think you can and let us all know how it works.

Pete