NCS Members,

If you haven't recieved it yet you should soon get the latest High Low Landings newsletter. In the newsletter is a request to vote on the proposed electric carrier unofficial rules. Please remember these are rules proposed for unofficial events only and will allow an event director much lattitude in how contests can include electric carrier events. The intent is to have a rules package for electric carrier that will give a starting point for events in 2008. These rules will be used to gain experience and knowledge so that later good decisions can be made for inclusion in the normal rules change process. The rules will be maintained by NCS (except for Skyray which is owned by Sig) and not by the AMA. After some experience with E carrier is established there will be ample time to discuss and give input for any further proposals to include E carrier in the official AMA rules cycle

It is important to establish a consistent starting point for inclusion of electric carrier events in the coming year. I encourage you to approve the proposed rules so that contest directors can plan to add E carrier events for 2008.

Please take the time to send a reply to Gary Hull.

Thanks
Bob

This is the modeling equivalent of bullying.  Somebody who can't berat anybody his own age so he attacks a kid two years younger.

The electric cheerleaders privately admit they can't baet a 65 or 40 or 36, so they make seperate new events for electrics.

But they figure if they attack the smallest engine in carrier, a little .15, only 2.5 cc, with UNLIMITED electric power, they can score a landmark victory of electic over "IC".   

If they want to prove a point, and do it honestly, they should do like all other events,  bring in electric as a lounge act and compare scores when it's over.

AMA 21835,

Everyone has an opinion and your thoughts are yours. The proposed rules and schedule at the Nats were carefully considered. There is no attempt to bully anyone. The proposed rules were sent out for comment to the members of the Navy Carrier Society and as of early December there was no other feedback sent in to the newsletter editor. As mentioned in my original post you can vote either for or against. If you want to have your thoughts considered please send them to the appropriate place.

You mentioned a couple of things that are not quite correct.

"Will never stop at low speed or during transition."

A good 15, set up properly will not stop either. To be competitive this is part of the challenge. Electrics have their own challenges and development issues. One reason for including them is to deteremine what the differences are and how to deal with them.


"Can run "left-hand" at no cost."

This is true but there are some people who run left handed glow engines now. If they choose to do so they are within the rules. Furthermore an electric setup can cost as much or more than a competitive glow engine. The rules make no judgement on potential cost.


"Has no limit whatsoever or horsepower"

There is a weight limit for electrics. This effectively limits the amount of power available. The size of the battery determines how much power the plane can use and power is weight. Glow engines are not limited to a maximum power either. You can run any 15 sized engine on any amount of nitro you want. Remember this is a speed limited event.

"Can dump huge amperage during 24 seconds of high speed."

See the previous comment. The max speed for 15 carrier is 70 mph that translates to a high speed time of 25.7 seconds not 24 seconds. Most really competive fliers are able to get to this speed out of a glow engine too. One of the biggest reasons 15 electric is different than profile or class I and II is that it is a speed limit event. At 70 mph you have reached max points and any additional speed or power does not gain any avantage.

"But 15 Profile Carrier has been totally obliterated.   A new event, UNLIMITED-ELECTRIC-ON-52-FOOT-LINES has been dumped on top of 15 Profile."

15 electric is not "unlimited" there is a weight maximum as described above.  Furthermore it has not been obliterated, anyone can fly either glow or electric.

These are unofficial events and typically flown for fun with no official recognition from the AMA.  There is no National Champion in the unofficial events, they are additional classes flown for fun and bragging rights only. When something new comes along this is the ideal place to try it out and see how it works.

AMA  21835, I don't know your name so I can't be sure who you are. I have gone to the Nats for the last 6 years and have flown in 15 carrier each year. I don't believe I have seen you there. I have also not seen any input to the NCS which is the governing body for navy carrier. IF YOU WANT TO BE HEARD YOU MUST USE THE COMMUNICATION CHANNELS PROVIDED BY THE NCS and AMA. Ranting in these forums is just that, ranting. I get really tired of these off the wall comments by people who do not even fly the event. There are a lot of us that take this seriously and want the best for our hobby. We are involved both on the field and off the field, not just sitting at home firing off random thoughts. If you don't like the changes use the proper methods to have your opinion heard.

Bob Frogner

Discussing rule changes can be done through the forums but the AMA special interest groups are the governing bodies for the events. In this case that is the Navy Carrier Society. Join and get involved. Send your opinions to Hi-Low Landings. Gary will be glad to print all opinions. Vote, as a member you will have an opportunity to cast your vote on the proposed rules. Get involved with running the organization and having your voice heard. Its only $6 for a years membership. The NCS website is out of date, we just don't have enought people to keep it active. The most current news and information is in HighLow Landings that comes out every three months.

Membership Information
The Navy Carrier Society is dedicated to the promotion and advancement of control line Navy Carrier.
Yearly membership, including a subscription to the newsletter :"Hi-Low Landings" is $6.00 for the
continental U.S. and Canada, and $10.00 elsewhere. You may join for single or multiple years.
Send your name address, and AMA number if applicable to: Navy carrier Society, c/o Ted Kraver, 225
W. Orchid Ln., Phoenix, AZ 85021.

Why not fly instead of time? Trying is much better than watching. This is a participant sport.  There is nothing that says electrics will sweep the 15 event. At this point in time I know of only one flying electric 15 carrier plane and that's the one I built. It is not "unlimited" it has about the same power(over even a little less)  than a Cox Conquest can produce. It still has problems and I am working them out. That's the fun.

It sounds like if you can't be sure you will win its not worth trying. You've got to start somewhere. When I first started out in 15 I did not expect to beat the guys that have been flying it for years. I just wanted to be involved. You can enter 15 sportsman if you like. That way you won't have to fly against the more experienced flyers.  Just come out and give it a try!!! We do this for fun not for big prizes and huge trophys. Sure its fun to win but there are few that win all the time. Most are in it for the enjoyment of participating. In the few years I have been doing this I have had fun when I was doing poorly as well as when I have done well.

One of the reasons to add electrics is to get new people into the event. The original "Denver" rules had the same intent. Carrier was declining and 15 was a way to encourage new participants. Recently there have been fewer entrants in most carrier classes. The addition of electrics opens up new possibilities and hopefully attracts some people that would not otherwise get involved. Combining glow and electric 15 is a logical step since it is a speed limited event. Its a way to see how such a combination will work out.

Give it a try either slimmer or electrons. Its fun!!!!

Paul,

OK, you win. I will not reply to your posts any longer. There is not an answer that will satisfy you and you exaggerate and misquote in your replies. I just don't want other people to misunderstand the event and the intent of the rules.

The SIG groups are there to support the events they are involved in. They are key to the process. If you want to go through your contest board rep feel free to do that. You will get more leverage for your opinion if you are part of the SIG for the particular event. This is true for all of the special interest groups within AMA

It is not "my" event. It is open to anyone who wants to fly it. At this point in time electrics have not been proven to be the ultimate 15 carrier plane.  The fact that I have a plane ready is not important. I just got going on it earlier than others. I use the rules that exist and if I think I can add something positive I work to make that happen.

By the way, I do not have a killer left hand crank in my glow 15 and probably never will. I compete with what I have and try my best. A $1200 electric system would be much better on a pattern plane than on a carrier plane. There are motors and batteries that you can buy right now that would work well in electric 15 that cost less than $150. Add a couple of season worth of fuel for a glow motor and the electrics cost is about the same as a glow motor. This is a speed limit event. At some point more power does you no good. Electrics have many challenges that glow power does not. It is just like any other power system that needs to be developed to work within the rules. One last point. There were 4 times as many electric motors sold last year than glow engines. The future of model airplanes is definitely going in the direction of electrics for a number of reasons. There are more people getting involved with electric power than starting up with glow engines. If we want to add participants this is one way to do that.

I still would like to encourage you to come fly and see how things turn out. You never know what is going to happen unless you participate.

In a catagory with flyers in single digits, there's no need to join a SIG to discuss an issue.  I know my Contest Board Rep and I can talk to him any time, without going through a bureaucracy.

So what's wrong with just using the 15 like the rules intend?  Too many $100 engines to compete against?  A custom-made left hand crank isn't enough of an advantage?  I'm sure a $1,200 electric system will do a fine job of pricing the peasants out of "your" event.

Well, there are a couple of points to consider here - The contest board makes rules, but most of the rules are
submitted by (or through) the Advisory Committees - and the AC's are run by the SIG's.  So if you choose to
ignore the SIG, your voice will be drowned out by the NCAC.

Secondly, the rules made by the Contest Board do not apply to "local rule", "fun-fly", "unofficial", or any other
definition of an event not specifically spelled out in the rule book.  So, .15 carrier (and Skyray, and nostalgia) at
the NATS are sponsored by, administered by and run by the SIG, in this case the NCS.  So again, if you choose
NOT to participate in the NCS, you give up your voice in the running of the unofficial events.

Frankly, I have built and flown an electric carrier plane.  If I were dead serious on trying to win any of the
events that will allow them, I WOULD NOT use an electric at this point.  But I am still working on mine and
and that opinion could change.  As for "investment",  I've got less money in my electrics than someone who
buys a Nelson for any AMA event, even BEFORE he puts his left-hand crank in it.  So that argument doesn't
hold much water.  As for the "motor can't stop" argument, I must admit that I agree with this point.  Once
an electric system is debugged, the ability to completely stop and restart the motor IS an advantage over
a glow motor - I would add to my local rules that if the motor stops and restarts, the flight is over.  Just like
if forward motion stops, the flight if over.

As a contest director, I'm going to try using the NCS guidelines next Spring in .15 and in Skyray.
We will probably have "rulebook" electric classes combined, percent of record, competing only against any
other electrics that may show up.  We already combine Skyray with Sportsman just to get people to enter
more events.  In other words, bring ALL YOUR Planes if you want, we'll find a way to allow you to fly them.
As a CD of a contest that includes Navy Carrier, my prime concern is keeping the deck busy, from the first
flight until the 5:00 pm cutoff.  That is my ONLY concern - growing the number of flyers and flights in
Navy Carrier.  If electrics help to that end, then my reaction is "Bring 'em on".  We will evaluate scores after
the contest and add that knowledge to the total to see if there is a method to fairly combine the two.  But
without the flights, there is no knowledge gained.  My opinion is that the NCS is interested in advancing the
Navy Carrier event, and if embracing electrics gains on that front then that is what they (we) will do.

Oh, and just a personal opinion -- I'll be GREATLY surprised if any electric wins against a decent turnout
of glow entries in any event for some time to come, regardless of cost.  The ability to "dump amps" does not
necessarily translate into performance gains....   (yet).

Mike A

I'm well aware of the procedures.

What we have here is not an AMA Rule Book event, but a well established local event that is being  run at the Nats on an unofficial basis.  However, the organizers of the 2008 Nats have seen fit to make a rule change the effecitvely obliterates everything about the event except the name.

If they want to launch a new event at the Nats, have right at it !  But don't use an established event name as a Trojan horse to lure sheep to the slaughter.

As sponsors, that is "their" right ...

As for Trojan horses leading sheep to slaughter, mixed metaphores aside, aren't we being a little melodromatic?  I don't see where any existing equipment is being rendered unflyable or even uncompetitive.  In fact, until we see some actual competition scores, all the rest is mere speculation on what MIGHT be the result.

I'll reserve judgment until such time as that data is available.

I'll also wait until then to comment further.

Mike A

Pul,
It's nice to see you out there swinging at windmills again. Don Quixote would be proud.
It's a shame to see the world we grew up in changing so fast and I feel your pain.

I have no huge interest in carrier Paul..........Someone told me about this thread. It's fun to watch you go when I don't have a dog in the fight. You're going to lose this one on a technical k.o. But that's no reason not to fight. Rocky was an underdog but he prevailed.

Herein lies an excellant arguement for a finite lifespan. The amp boys are encroaching on your territory and the B.O.M. abolitionists are encroaching on mine. And the last cowboy died chagrined that he couldn't wear a sidearm or ride his horse into town anymore.

Don't give up!! Hang tough!! persevere!! You'll still end up with a black eye. But hey, it'll just make you look more cavalier.