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Author Topic: Electric Carrier IV  (Read 1650 times)

Offline eric conley

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Electric Carrier IV
« on: May 09, 2008, 05:39:29 PM »
     I've been waiting around for someone to post here and it has been so long I finished a new plane in the meantime. I've finally gotten around to building a Hellcat after many years of thinking there was just to much frontal area in the F6F for AMA profile carrier. As it is a ''electric carrier plane'' I don't expect it to go very fast anyway so I built a F6F anyway.
     I thought I could build this plane lighter than my previous e-109T but as usual it ended up heavier (109T 46oz/F6F 48oz). I used 8 ribs in each wing panel instead of 7 as I usually do (Mike Potter said if you wanted it lighter why didn't you make it 6 ribs in each panel) and the landing gear had more wire in it than the fuselage mounted gear that the 109T has. So anyway so much for lighter.
     I did end up with a better layout of componits and I got the bellcrank on the inside wing panel instead of the outside wing panel. I may have to do something with the battery box. On this plane it only cools one side of the battery and in the 109T there was cool air going by on 4 sides. If its a problem it will be easy to cool 2 sides (top and bottom) so will check temperatures after each flight.
     Tomorrow (this Saturday) looks like it will be a good day to try every thing out. I'll report back on how things went (or didn't went) after I get a flight in. eric

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 07:20:05 PM »
It has been awhile, hasn't it -- my excuse is that I was pouting about losing my e-skyray the week before our contest.  Broken down line ... went to half throttle and slow rolled across the circle at about 40 feet ... lawn-darted about 50 feet from the center on the opposite side.

After stewing about it for a week, and running our contest, I finally got the carcass out and looked it over.  Turns out the wing is save-able (I had to make two new tip ribs and one interior rib - and the trailing edge "sheeting" is broken in 3 or four places.  In fact the wing repair is finished, except for covering).  The fuselage is a write-off, but I'm just going to pull one out of a kit Skyray and build it the way this one was.  The tail parts were  un-harmed.   The ground was pretty spongy that night, I guess.

I sent off a contest report to HLL on ours Spring Kickoff -- it went like this:

Navy Carrier Results - Mid-Iowa Controlliners Spring Kickoff  (May 3-4, 2008 - Polk City, Iowa)

We had originally scheduled the Navy Carrier events for Saturday (May 3rd) but it turned out that the weather forecasts were correct - by 7:00 AM, winds were over 20 mph - they stayed 20-25 mph (gusting higher) until well after 7:00 pm. Originally, it was agreed that the deck and circle would be available on Sunday for practice flying (since the forecasts were much more favorable). Since everyone present was planning to be back on Sunday, we just decided to postpone the official flying until Sunday. Sunday's winds were about 10 mph in the morning - increased to about 15 and stayed steady most of the afternoon. But we got the deck set up (in what turned out to be a less than ideal spot - right into the wind) by 8:30 and got most of the flights in by noon. The "Chicago" guys were done by noon, so the official standings and the trophies were awarded based on the scores at noon. The two "locals" (Mike Anderson and Curt Netcott) came back after lunch and recorded some official scores, which were recorded as scores but which did not affect the outcomes at the noon break. Got that? We got scores but we had agreed that we would not allow them to change the official standings - which were:

Class 1-2 (% of record)                 High       Low
                          Model              Time       Time    Lndg  Bonus  Total
1st-- Pete Mazur    MO-1 (Cl.1)       18.42   145.03   100    100   376.4
2nd--Art Johnson  Guardian (Cl.1)    18.64     30.2     ---    100   212.6
3rd-- Bill Calkins    Vampire (Pro.)     20.95     ---      ---     ---    85.9

Profile (Open)
1st-- Bill Calkins      Vampire            21.5      179.0     ---      10     176.9
2nd--Art Johnson    Guardian           22.44      77.9     ---      10     124.9
Att-- Pete Mazur     MO-1
Att-- Mike Anderson MO-1

.15 Profile                                     High       Low
                            Model              Time       Time      Lndg   Bonus   Total
1st-- Art Johnson     SBD                 39.5       65.83     ---      ---      62.2
2nd--Mike Anderson  MO-3               34.13    124.73     100     ---     189.3
3rd-- Curt Netcott   Wildkitty            34.75     76.61     100     ---     173.8

NRB (% of what?)
1st-- Art Johnson Skyray (Glow)        23.82     63.13    100      ---    202.0
2nd--Bill Calkins Skyray (Electric)       30.89      ---       ---      ---     58.3
3rd-- Curt Netcott Skyray (Electric)    29.81     44.76     ---      ---    75.4
Att-- Pete Mazur Skyray (Electric)

NOTES:
NRB (% of ??) - "NRB stands for Non-rulebook" In the past, we have combined Sportsman with Skyray. Since we haven't had a Sportsman entry in a couple of years, we threw ALL the Non-rulebook (or NCS unofficial) events into one event - kind of a run-what-ya-brung. The scoring will be "Percent of 2007 Top 20 best score" for the event you are flying. To keep the deck busy, we will find a way to let you fly anything you wish. (I had kind of determined that I'd also figure out some way to handicap it if any true Sportsman had entered - maybe their score would be "Percent of last year's 2nd best" Sportsman score. At any rate, we had just the three Skyray's that got scores. Art used a K&B 5.8, Bill used a Scorpion Helicopter Brushless motor, Curt used a Rimfire Brushless. Both Bill and Curt have electric motors which are turning 9-5 or 9-6 props over 16000 RPM, but Pete's is still the fastest. My electric was still broken, so no times to report.  Scores were indicative of rusty-pilot syndrome, more than weather.  Maybe we could change it to the Spring Rust-off ... 

Mike A.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline eric conley

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 12:35:14 PM »
     The first flight was not exactly what you wish for. Turns out this plane likes to hunt just like the e-109T does, maybe a little worse. I had the plane set a little nose heavy but it did no good on that flight. Gave the landing gear a good test on the landing. The plane was nose heavy enough that I couldn't hang it so when it came to the landing I couldn't bring the nose up very far so ended up with the landing gear folded back and the plane on its back. Nothing broke and I straightened the gear out to where it should be without removing them from the plane.
     The two e planes that Ive built so far have the battery just over the top of the wing and can be used to balance the plane (trim). I have noticed that when checking the CG it seems like the battery weight sets up a pendulum effect so that the planes nose tips down with ever increasing force. As the battery is ahead of the center of lift it doesn't cause the plane to pitch up when checking the rearward CG. Soooo when the plane is flying and you give it a little up the plane goes up a little and when you give it a little down it pitches down.
     As I have gotten the 109T to fly pretty good so will try some of the same tricks with this plane and see if I can get anywhere. eric

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 08:49:08 PM »
I have gotten a few photo's of our contest uploaded to the yahoo Carrier site --

Mike
Mike@   AMA 10086
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 08:42:06 AM »
It has been awhile, hasn't it -- my excuse is that I was pouting about losing my e-skyray the week before our contest.  Broken down line ... went to half throttle and slow rolled across the circle at about 40 feet ... lawn-darted about 50 feet from the center on the opposite side.

After stewing about it for a week, and running our contest, I finally got the carcass out and looked it over.  Turns out the wing is save-able (I had to make two new tip ribs and one interior rib - and the trailing edge "sheeting" is broken in 3 or four places.  In fact the wing repair is finished, except for covering).  The fuselage is a write-off, but I'm just going to pull one out of a kit Skyray and build it the way this one was.  The tail parts were  un-harmed.   The ground was pretty spongy that night, I guess.

I sent off a contest report to HLL on ours Spring Kickoff -- it went like this:

Navy Carrier Results - Mid-Iowa Controlliners Spring Kickoff  (May 3-4, 2008 - Polk City, Iowa)

We had originally scheduled the Navy Carrier events for Saturday (May 3rd) but it turned out that the weather forecasts were correct - by 7:00 AM, winds were over 20 mph - they stayed 20-25 mph (gusting higher) until well after 7:00 pm. Originally, it was agreed that the deck and circle would be available on Sunday for practice flying (since the forecasts were much more favorable). Since everyone present was planning to be back on Sunday, we just decided to postpone the official flying until Sunday. Sunday's winds were about 10 mph in the morning - increased to about 15 and stayed steady most of the afternoon. But we got the deck set up (in what turned out to be a less than ideal spot - right into the wind) by 8:30 and got most of the flights in by noon. The "Chicago" guys were done by noon, so the official standings and the trophies were awarded based on the scores at noon. The two "locals" (Mike Anderson and Curt Netcott) came back after lunch and recorded some official scores, which were recorded as scores but which did not affect the outcomes at the noon break. Got that? We got scores but we had agreed that we would not allow them to change the official standings - which were:

Class 1-2 (% of record)                 High       Low
                          Model              Time       Time    Lndg  Bonus  Total
1st-- Pete Mazur    MO-1 (Cl.1)       18.42   145.03   100    100   376.4
2nd--Art Johnson  Guardian (Cl.1)    18.64     30.2     ---    100   212.6
3rd-- Bill Calkins    Vampire (Pro.)     20.95     ---      ---     ---    85.9

Profile (Open)
1st-- Bill Calkins      Vampire            21.5      179.0     ---      10     176.9
2nd--Art Johnson    Guardian           22.44      77.9     ---      10     124.9
Att-- Pete Mazur     MO-1
Att-- Mike Anderson MO-1

.15 Profile                                     High       Low
                            Model              Time       Time      Lndg   Bonus   Total
1st-- Art Johnson     SBD                 39.5       65.83     ---      ---      62.2
2nd--Mike Anderson  MO-3               34.13    124.73     100     ---     189.3
3rd-- Curt Netcott   Wildkitty            34.75     76.61     100     ---     173.8

NRB (% of what?)
1st-- Art Johnson Skyray (Glow)        23.82     63.13    100      ---    202.0
2nd--Bill Calkins Skyray (Electric)       30.89      ---       ---      ---     58.3
3rd-- Curt Netcott Skyray (Electric)    29.81     44.76     ---      ---    75.4
Att-- Pete Mazur Skyray (Electric)

NOTES:
NRB (% of ??) - "NRB stands for Non-rulebook" In the past, we have combined Sportsman with Skyray. Since we haven't had a Sportsman entry in a couple of years, we threw ALL the Non-rulebook (or NCS unofficial) events into one event - kind of a run-what-ya-brung. The scoring will be "Percent of 2007 Top 20 best score" for the event you are flying. To keep the deck busy, we will find a way to let you fly anything you wish. (I had kind of determined that I'd also figure out some way to handicap it if any true Sportsman had entered - maybe their score would be "Percent of last year's 2nd best" Sportsman score. At any rate, we had just the three Skyray's that got scores. Art used a K&B 5.8, Bill used a Scorpion Helicopter Brushless motor, Curt used a Rimfire Brushless. Both Bill and Curt have electric motors which are turning 9-5 or 9-6 props over 16000 RPM, but Pete's is still the fastest. My electric was still broken, so no times to report.  Scores were indicative of rusty-pilot syndrome, more than weather.  Maybe we could change it to the Spring Rust-off ... 

Mike A.

Shouldn't this have been a post of its own?  I was going to try and have a "SkyRay" ready, but, the new shop has taken priority on a lot of things.  Also very sporty of how you handled the awards.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 04:15:21 PM »
Shouldn't this have been a post of its own?  I was going to try and have a "SkyRay" ready, but, the new shop has taken priority on a lot of things.  Also very sporty of how you handled the awards.  DOC Holliday

Yeah, probably should have been a separate thread -- I started out to answer Eric and why the board had been so quiet - just kind of "free associated" all the little bits of info floating around in my head.


As for the awards, I was determined NOT to have them all left over again next year.  I've never been real comfortable flying "at my own contest", but wanted to keep the number of flyers and flights as high as possible, without affecting the outcome too much -- so the decision to make the NRB events competitive with each other and the decision to take a couple of flights myself.  Now, we've got a pretty good crop of Newbies in the club this year -- I'm going to get SOME of them flying carrier if at all possible.

I know about the new shop taking up your time - even my old shop is a constant drain on my time --- mainly just trying to keep it clean.

Maybe you can knock out a Skyray by the Sig contest ...

Mike
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 07:14:53 PM »


Maybe you can knock out a Skyray by the Sig contest ...

Mike


By the way, Doc - bring it up here next year and fly it in NRB as a Sportsman, then fly it again
as a Skyray - perfectly legal and you'd get different scores based on percentage of different
events - makes for some interesting "strategery".

@

Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline eric conley

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 09:00:27 PM »
     Well its been a while sense I posted anything on the Hellcat. My excuse is that I had to get my planes ready for the North West Regionals up at Eugene Oregon. Had a nice time up there, and the weather was pretty good. Good weather in Oregon for this California flyer means that it didn't rain hard enough to stop the flying.
     Anyway back to the Hellcat which I haven't flown sense the first less than good test flight. As I stated in ''reply#2'' the darn thing hunts in HS just like my e-109T. I suspicion where I placed the battery over the wing is the culprit. I think I need to go a little further in why I think that is the problem. As stated the battery sits over the wing and (I think)  causes a pendulum effect on the center of gravity as the plane raises its nose and drops its nose. The reason (I think) it does this is that part of the battery extends back behind the center of gravity (CG) so when the nose moves down the CG moves forward causing the pitch. Both of my planes hunt badly and the only thing thats the same is where I put the battery. One is a Bf 109T and the other is a Hellcat very different planes except for where the batterys are.
     So I will go out tomarrow and try to fly the Hellcat once more to see what happens and if it still hunting will move the battery to below (one great big pod) the fuselage and see if that changes things. If things change for the better maybe I will try a Wildcat and put the battery below the wing. Keep tuned, eric
     PS; sure was fun flying those IC planes at Eugene.

Offline don Burke

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 10:58:14 PM »
Might try mounting the battery spanwise to cut down it's pitch moment of inertia.  You'd probably have to put it inside the wing for drag reasons.
don Burke AMA 843
Menifee, CA

Offline eric conley

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2008, 03:23:38 PM »
     I would have loved to put the battery or batteries in the wing but in my lust for speed I didn't want to build that thick an airfoil. With the present airfoil there is a little less than 3/4'' between the spars and the battery is a fat 1-1/4'' thick. Maybe next time I should run the battery cross ways and mount it in front of the spars. I could make a wing like the Hawker Tempest wing next to the fuselage.
     I took the plane back out this AM and flew it again with much the same results. Although I had added tail weight to bring the CG back the plane flew just like it did on its first outing. Although I would like to think it was the placement of the battery there is doubt in my mind that maybe it isn't that at all. It could be something as simple as the control handle not lining up with the elevator. I was a little off with this set of lines and do have to use a bit of down elevator to keep it flying level.
     The first 109T I built flew terrible (hunted in HS) and I worked on it for quite some time and then changed my handle to elevator location and suddenly it flew just fine. I'll keep playing with it but right now I need a new CL-1 and .15 plane so will be working on them the rest of the year. eric

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Electric Carrier IV
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 10:29:29 PM »
It has been awhile, hasn't it -- my excuse is that I was pouting about losing my e-skyray the week before our contest.  Broken down line ... went to half throttle and slow rolled across the circle at about 40 feet ... lawn-darted about 50 feet from the center on the opposite side.

After stewing about it for a week, and running our contest, I finally got the carcass out and looked it over.  Turns out the wing is save-able (I had to make two new tip ribs and one interior rib - and the trailing edge "sheeting" is broken in 3 or four places.  In fact the wing repair is finished, except for covering).  The fuselage is a write-off, but I'm just going to pull one out of a kit Skyray and build it the way this one was.  The tail parts were  un-harmed.   The ground was pretty spongy that night, I guess.

 ... 

Mike A.


My Skyray repairs have been finished for a couple of weeks now, but various trips, work and weather have limited me to two flights on it -- When I built the new fuse, I made provisions to mount either an AXI 2826/8 motor or the Scorpion 3032/8 that I had on the first one.  The Axi is two ounces lighter than the Scorpion so for the first time I built in a NOSE-WEIGHT box, and kept the tail weight box, just in case, and also had built a tip weight box in the wing, which was repaired, recovered and dropped right in to the new fuse.  So what happens?  With the Scorpion, I didn't need either nose or tail weight, and since I carry five A123 cells in the outboard wing, I didn't need any added tip weight either. Oh, well - three empty boxes is better than needing a bunch of trim flights to get them properly loaded.

Tonight, flew an "official type flight" - seven high speed (such as it is) laps, one set-up lap, 7 low speed laps (very pleasing performance - somewhere between 3 1/2 and 4 minutes), signal as 7th lap ends and land on next lap.  When I recharged, the A123's (rated at 2300 mah) took 2180 mah, so I had discharged them to 5% remaining capacity - try that with LiPo's.  n1

But, it means that I don't have much wiggle room on either high speed or low speed, or I may fall out of the sky a half lap or so from the deck -- it was dead calm tonight, I wonder how say 15 mph wind will affect these calculations ...  :-\

Sig contest is this weekend, and I've been being kind of conservative with it until after Sig.  Then I'll do some more playing with props and balance.  The above was with a 10-8 APC pusher and the plane weighs 50 oz in the above form.

Mike A.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa


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