Author Topic: 3-man committee offers saving ideas for Carrier and the Nats (Read 2927 times)

Joe Just · « **on:** September 11, 2013, 07:41:20 PM »

OK we got this put together sooner than I thought. Take a look at the attachment and offer your thoughts.
Joe

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** September 12, 2013, 08:45:40 AM »

Have now got it printed off for perusing.

john vlna · « **Reply #2 on:** September 12, 2013, 05:09:22 PM »

Joe
I like the idea of two skill classes, do you include scale in that or just profile?

What do you think about, no hanging in sportsman , all three events. May have to have a speed limit like say 80-85, to avoid why hanging was allowed in the first place. Many people have given up on carrier, at the NATS and elsewhere because of hanging.

John

Joe Just · « **Reply #3 on:** September 12, 2013, 07:07:54 PM »

Quote from: john vlna on September 12, 2013, 05:09:22 PM

Joe
I like the idea of two skill classes, do you include scale in that or just profile?

What do you think about, no hanging in sportsman , all three events. May have to have a speed limit like say 80-85, to avoid why hanging was allowed in the first place. Many people have given up on carrier, at the NATS and elsewhere because of hanging.

John

John, I can't answer for the other 2 guys, but I personally think it is obvious that the idea was that All 3 classes were to be included in Sportsman. In looking at the recent tabulation of scores in the NCS "Top 20" it seems logical that 300 points in the classes is a good place for the cutoff. I personally can see a person scoring over 300 in profile and under 300 in Class 1 or 2, but in reviewing the listing it does seem unlikely.
As to my personal thoughts on hanging in sportsman or class I and II should be disallowed. By the time a sportsman grows in talent and can hang he is beyond sportsman categories. It might be better to outlaw moveable control lines in the Sportsman class, much like our NW Sport .40 Profile class.

Wayne J. Buran · « **Reply #4 on:** September 12, 2013, 08:06:35 PM »

Quote from: john vlna on September 12, 2013, 05:09:22 PM

Joe
I like the idea of two skill classes, do you include scale in that or just profile?

What do you think about, no hanging in sportsman , all three events. May have to have a speed limit like say 80-85, to avoid why hanging was allowed in the first place. Many people have given up on carrier, at the NATS and elsewhere because of hanging.

John

John, I dont't understand why we would disallow hanging and at the same time put a cap on high speed. Seems to me that you are artificially constricting scoring. Why not limit the hang to something like 25 deg, disallow the sliders, uncap the top end and let the calculation award the slow speed like it does now. I just don't think these airplanes should fly in a stall position that doesn't look like anything near real.
Thanks. Wayne

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #5 on:** September 12, 2013, 08:29:35 PM »

I would like to see carrier grow from what it is now. My teenage boys and I are just getting involved and would like to someday go to the NATS. Of course I don't have the answers, but think the answer must have something to do with drawing more pilots that have less grey hair. Please don't take that the wrong way. I've started my own grey hair patch, it might have something to do with the fact I have three teenagers. I've talked to my boys about this a little and they think it has less to do with the rules (i.e. 60 deg., hanging, line sliders). And more to do with having a trainer onsite to let new guys try it out, they fell in love with carrier after the first try. I understand a lot of guys stepped away from carrier for some of the reasons listed before. I personally think is just an excuse most of the time. As Joe knows, we have the NW Sport .40 here and we still have trouble getting some of the anti-hanger/slider guys to come back. I do like the sound of the Pro class and the Sportsman class, but I'm not sure that's the answer. My boys and I were at the NW Regionals this year and really enjoyed flying with some of the big shots that came from out of state and didn't mind losing badly to them. I don't want to get into a big fight with someone about this issue, so please don't take this the wrong way. It's just my opinion and opinions are like arm pits everyone usually has at least two and sometimes they stink.

I would love to help do what I can on my end.

john vlna · « **Reply #6 on:** September 13, 2013, 07:33:39 AM »

Wayne
Speedlimit promotes crossover fliers, like 15 does. Joe probably has a better idea, just use fixed lead outs and let people hang if they want

PS Duke, you are probably right age has a lot to do with how many people fly.

John

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2013, 10:44:34 AM »

Some areas of the country have clubs that don't understand carrier or do not have the equipment (deck, bags...). So they don't consider even having a contest with carrier.

You need a person spearheading the carrier event and must have access the equipment (like a deck), otherwise the event will slowly die in that area of the country.

Might be worth investigating where all the decks are and what clubs are willing to host a carrier contest.

Fred Cronenwett

Wayne J. Buran · « **Reply #8 on:** September 13, 2013, 11:28:30 AM »

Quote from: john vlna on September 13, 2013, 07:33:39 AM

Wayne
Speedlimit promotes crossover fliers, like 15 does. Joe probably has a better idea, just use fixed lead outs and let people hang if they want

PS Duke, you are probably right age has a lot to do with how many people fly.

John

John, I would have to see some real numbers on that but that was not the case in combat. Combat in the U.S. continues to die no matter what except in other countries and they don't seem to be slowing down no matter what the mode of power is.
Thanks
Wayne

john vlna · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2013, 03:18:00 PM »

Wayne
Brodak's is your example. Since we added 15 carrier ( Tom Hampshires idea) overall partcipation has steadily grown.
Most of the fliers are crossovers from other events
The physical closeness of events has helped, at the NATS things are really spread out, in time and distance.

As far as combat goes it is age, let's face it reflexes slow down. I think speed limit has saved what is left, keeping some interest at least. When I flew combat I loved the speed too, but I left when I wasn't keeping up with the plane. If I hadn't moved over to carrier and scale I would have flown the speed limit event.

John

PS how many former combat/carrier fliers now fly stunt?

john vlna · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2013, 03:25:22 PM »

Fred
From 1990 I ran a contest every year in carrier until 2004 in the Washington DC area. I got exactly 1 out of state entry. 2 sportsman fliers have stayed with it. Made the cables, setup the deck, supplied the trophies, etc. Sometimes having someone with interest isn't enough. Answer? I don't have one.

John

john vlna · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2013, 06:15:19 PM »

Check Pete's original thread for a proposal that just might work. I put it there because it directly addresses the issue and brings that thread back to the original point.

John

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2013, 09:43:34 PM »

PS Duke, you are probably right age has a lot to do with how many people fly.

John
[/quote]
Age shouldn't stop guys from flying. You remember Bill Darkow, he just won the last two carrier contest here in Western Washington with his new plane. I dropped off his trophy the other day and he informed me that he not only won the contest but beat the local record in NW Sport .40. He will be hard to put up with all winter since that was the last contest of the year. He's still has it at 81 years old.

john vlna · « **Reply #13 on:** September 14, 2013, 05:31:36 AM »

Good for him! Unfortunately not everyone is as lucky. I am 72 and I can assure you that I can not fly as well as I did at 30, 40, 50, or 60

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #14 on:** September 14, 2013, 09:54:25 AM »

No not everyone can be as lucky, but everyone has a lucky day every now and then. I guess it was to inspire some to keep trying. Bill has his good days and bad days, but it's good to have him around. We younger guys need the older guys around to learn from, plus there are some great stories to hear. As Joe says "Never give up!,.......", he also puts it on his shirts.

Joe Just · « **Reply #15 on:** September 14, 2013, 10:53:33 AM »

Duke, like this?

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #16 on:** September 15, 2013, 10:26:40 AM »

I was hoping you would have a picture!

Bill Little · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2013, 11:02:00 AM »

As to age, I "should" have quite a while left in this hobby, but my body is definitely betraying me in major ways.......... I am afraid that about the time that I could actually do somewhat lousy in Carrier, the body will be done. I might not even be able to fly a stunt pattern, and carrier is more dependent on reflexes, it seems.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Joe Just · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2013, 03:01:25 PM »

Bill, perhaps a bit more intense in some parts, but much easier in others. In Carrier you don't have to have somebody else tell you that you must fly right now. If you don't sign up or get in line you have all day to give your 3 attempts for an official score a try. carrier is an event that beginners and "Old timers" a chance to just sit, observe what others are doing as they approach the event, or just sit with me and listen to old Football/Lacrosse stories or how terrible I used to be, or- (help out if that's your thing). In regards to pressure, Carrier is the most laid back event you can think of (with the exception of course of those that are competing to be the best Nationally. Get back to Brodak's or purchase a set of DVD's that are available through Tim LaNore and get a look a t how much fun Carrier can be. For laughs, get the 2011 set. Then you can see me try to fly a plane that was run over by my buddies car the day before , my first flight in Profile when I couldn't get the hook down and finally my complete flight including a 4th place finish that broke my last place finish at all the previous events, including OTS etc I had previously entered over the years.

Just a final thought for any lurkers there. Carrier in its simple form is the most FUN event going, bar none!!
Joe Just

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #19 on:** September 15, 2013, 03:26:44 PM »

Joe is right, it's a ton of fun. We even do a little BBQ tailgating at our contests.