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Author Topic: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?  (Read 2868 times)

Offline LARRY RICE

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1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« on: July 17, 2007, 01:37:11 PM »
          At Black Hawk models we are considering 1/2a carrier. We believe that there are several people who have wanted to try carrier out but have always thought that it was to expensive and to complicated. We are thinking about making it more affordable and dumbing it down a little with the hope that a little taste of carrier will make believers out of newbies.
          Profile model with scale appearance, thick build up wing, light wing loading, modern high performance throttled .049 engine (third line) and an arresting hook that is shock mounted in the down position. We do not think that flaps would be needed. Flying on 42" lines this should be fun for fun's sake only. A 10' plywood deck would be more than enough, maybe.
OK! Please tell me what you think.
Larry

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 02:30:57 PM »
Sounds good in theory,,,

Two hurdles:

1.  Getting a 1/2A engine to throttle properly.

2. Scaling down the 3-line bellcrank.

Any proposals?
Paul Smith

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 02:48:25 PM »
Larry,
I never thought about it.

But, for the assembled folks information;

049 and 061 Norvel Big Mig engines throttle just fine.

The J Roberts bellcrank works great with an 8 oz model.

It's possible and sounds like fun. The question would be, is there enough interest.

Chris...

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 03:19:29 PM »
          We have been looking at putting two Sig 1/2a bellcranks together to make a simple 3 line system, there is another experiment that we are working on with line and a spring but that does not seem to be practical. There are several 1/2a engines that throttle pretty well, another option might be a simple fuel cutoff with no slow speed laps. I like the slow speed laps so I lean towards throttled engines.
Larry

Offline don Burke

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 07:24:47 PM »
Go for it!
The small "Roberts" bellcrank is NOT too big for a 1/2A.
I think a spring loaded hook might be a problem.  A release loop on the hook with trip wire on the pushrod is a simple answer.
I've tried to attach a pic of an installation.
don Burke AMA 843
Menifee, CA

Offline don Burke

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 07:26:35 PM »
Now all I have to figure out is how to make it big enough to see. 

7-18: I think this one looks OK.  This is as supplied in an MO-1 kit.
The hook sticks thru the fuselage, dowelled and bushed, with a wheel collar on the other side.
The about 1" coil is the spring to hold it down.
The trip wire originally went through a bushing, but that broke off during use and turned out to be unnecessary.  Full down releases the hook.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 11:35:33 AM by don Burke »
don Burke AMA 843
Menifee, CA

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 07:46:38 PM »
I think throttle response (or lack of it) due to the minimal line tension generated by 1/2A planes might be a problem. Here in NorCal we (well not me, but Jim Schnieder among others) used to fly 1/2A WAM (Western Associated Modelers) rules carrier.  As I remember it, no throttle was involved but a third line was attached to the rear of the airplane.  High speed was flown in a normal manner, low speed was flown by pulling on the "tail tweeker" and giving up elevator, resulting in a prop hanging type of low speed.  WAM .40 profile was also flown in a similar manner.  As you can guess, the 1/2 A event was the more difficult of the two to fly.  Presently, neither event if being flown although AMA carrier flying has seen a resurgence of interest here in the past few years.

As far as newbies are concerned, I think they would be better off with a 35 sized profile plane and Brodak handle and bellcrank.  Well proven components and easier to fly. The difficulty of the set-up is overstated, especially if you forgo line sliders, really not necessary or even recommended for a first time carrier flier (IMHO).  I think a better direction might be an entry level 35 size profile carrier kit.  The Brodak Guardian is close but its internal controls make it a bit difficult for a first time builder to get right. What is called for is external bellcrank, droppable hook, leadout sliders optional.  Golden State models used to kit an MO-1 that met these qualifications but I would rather see a different design.  

Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
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Offline bfrog

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 09:00:15 PM »
I agree with Pete about the size of the plane being difficult. I fly both 36 profile and 15 carrier and the plane is much harder to fly than the 36. For most the full sized profile would be much easier to learn on and get to enjoy.

I think the old WAM 1/2A did have some throttle. The Cox motors back then had an exhaust baffle/ring that was operated by the third line. The extra line exited the model near the tail and that helped pull the tail in and the nose out for hanging. As I remember there were some very good fliers that could pretty much hover the airplane around the circle. It was interesting to watch. Never flew it myself. With the aft mounted line the line tension would be minimal and make it extremely difficult to hang the airplane.
Bob Frogner

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2007, 01:15:41 PM »
I read these postings with great interrest and let the suggestions rattle around in the old brain over night. We have on the drawing board a carrier model for a .15 to .20 size engine and we may do it some day, but NOW we are looking at 1/2a. The cost of a larger plane with all of the equipment, a larger engine and carrier deck makes this not a practical soulation for a new comer. We want to make a low cost way to try it out and if you like it then spend the big bucks. With a 1/2a the deck can be cardboard and the arresting lines, rubber bands. With the arresting hook in the down position it eliminates all of the clips and attachments soldered to the push rod and with the 1/2a on 42' lines that down to release the hook may be fatail to a newbee. Get off the carrier and make an arrested landing are the two main features we are aiming for.
Larry

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2007, 01:56:17 PM »
Larry: I think that it's great that you are proposing doing something positive for the event rather than just lamenting the passing of the good 'ol days.  My concern is that the plane you propose will be difficult to successfully fly at low speed and discourage possible converts.  I know I had zilch luck flying 1/2A WAM (on a borrowed plane) - one flight was enough to convince me to stay with my 36 sized planes.  The only way to resolve this is to design, build, and fly the plane - and see what happens - wishing you great success with the project. y1 
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Ken Deboy

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2007, 03:08:03 PM »
Since this is in the design stage, it might be worth trying the above idea of a non-throttled engine with a third line atteched to the tail to force the plane into a "hang." This eliminates the complications of a 3-line bellcrank and trying to find a throttle-able .049 and parts. AFAIK the only (non-expensive) half-A's currently in production are the Brodak and OK Cub. Might be good to standardiize on one of them.

cheers,
Ken
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2007, 05:51:30 PM »
bfrog is correct, WAM 1/2A carrier did have some throttle input.  The third line went from the exhaust baffle, around the tail and to the handle.  Two handles and both hands were used, one for elevator, a second for the tail/throttle tweaker.  I really don't think it is the way to go here.  Very difficult to do successfully and a little too much like a "puppet plane" for me.  Spectator appeal was minimal as the airplanes pretty much hovered around the circle with their Tee-Dee and Medallion engines screaming at almost full throttle.  Noisey, irritating,  many crashes.  That was one reason it died out.  OK Cub engine would not have enough power for this type of flying.  A standard 3 line bellcrank set up would be preferable if it could be made to work and the airplane could be made reasonably easy to fly.  Tall order.  FWIW: WAM profile carrier was flown the same way, .40 max engine size, two handles etc.   Prop hanging was the norm well before it became incorporated into the AMA event. 
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2007, 07:54:45 PM »
          We are currently looking at these engines: Brodak, Norvel, T. D. however as has been suggested here by an employee an older .09 RC engine could be used too. Since we are not talking competition why not. Our current wing plan calls for 28" span and 125 square inches of area......we could enlarge that by 10% and still be OK.
         At Black Hawk Models we always think about kids but I guess that this would be for modelers that are a little older and have some experance.
Larry

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2007, 10:48:25 PM »
Just a thought:  Enlarge by 10% and you are getting into .15 carrier numbers.  Might be a way to go - R/C .15s are available, better fit for currently available bellcranks and handles, a competition class should you want to go that route and a good training class for the other carrier classes. If fun only is the goal, certainly other sized engines (ie:.09,.10)  could be used. Suggestion Larry - design a 1/2A size and a 10% larger .15 size and have a fly off.  Best beginner plane wins.  My pet beginner idea is to steal a cue from the racing guys and propose a Goldberg (maybe OS-Berg) Carrier Class...but that will be the subject of another thread when I get around to it.   
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 09:48:14 AM »
I agree with the "15 concept".

Contrary to old time thinking, there is no cost saving by going down from .15 to .049.  In the olden days, Babe Bees were $3.95 and 15's were 12 or 15 bucks.

Now you can get a really-nice throttled 15 for $75 and 1/2A's are no cheaper, plus of doubtful functionality.  15-carrier has a 70-MPH speed limit, so there's not a lot of payoff for a high-bucks engine.

I am continuing the "hollow log" tradition with my collection of worn-out Black Widow junk, but I'm afraid the end is in sight for that engine class.  The 15 is the "new 1/2A".
Paul Smith

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2007, 02:57:19 PM »
        For the table top models You should try one of the new reed valve engines from OK they are really very good, better than the 'A' engines that we were selling.
Larry

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 04:59:57 AM »
Reed valve Cub?  Sounds like a possibility.  Maybe I'll give one a try.

What would really be nice would be for some enterprizing machinist/engine man to come out with a big production run of high quality Black Widow replacement cylinders. 

They don't seem too shy about knocking off spares for ST and other brands.
Paul Smith

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 11:09:25 AM »
AIRFOIL:  We have been working with a symmetrical airfoil and planning to make it thicker but maybe I should be looking at a flat bottom airfoil?

What do you think of these: Seafire (carrier version of the Spitfire), Zero, Helldiver, and Hellcat.
Larry

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 01:00:31 PM »
I made a carrier job with a lifting airfoil once - BIG msitake.

The name of the game is getting rid of lift , so you can raise the nose without climbing.

The wing should be thin, with the worst possible airfoil.  It just needs to fly level at HIGH and hover at LOW.
Paul Smith

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2007, 10:43:13 PM »
Gotta get another 2 cents here - Thin air-foil, design optimized for "hover" flight is the way to go if...the goal is to produce a competative .15 carrier design.  Heck, just get permission to kit Bill Bishop's "Sniper" design  - not a bad idea, actually.  But, if the goal is to produce a more versatile design, one may want to consider a fully symetrical airfoil - and a more attractive design.  Regarding the airfoil, a medium thick symetrical airfoil would give the modeler (customer) the option of building a carrier plane or... a sport/stunt trainer.  This would broaden the appeal of the design and   :!  who knows, maybe the plane will foster another racing class. 

As far as carrier flying goes, it could still be competative at the level of its target market, beginner or intermediate carrier.  Personally, I would de-emphasize the "hover" flight aspect for the beginner.  Let them fly fast, fly slow, and learn to make a scale type carrier landing. Not that difficult and a very satisfying maneuver.  My son was WAM junior champ (twice) when he was 13 and 14, only event he flew was profile carrier but made every landing using this style of flight.  Later, the leadouts could be moved back and a hover style developed - after interest in the event was developed.

Regarding the choice of designs:  I'd rule out the Spitfire and Zero.  Love both of them but they are pure low wing designs.  Mid wing, shoulder wing, and even high wing are more stable in low speed, probably having to do with the vertical CG.  OK, the Helldiver and Hellcat are not exactly mid wing but the wings sit higher in the fuselage than the previously mentioned designs.  Also mounting the wing through the fuselage rather than gluing to the bottom makes a sturdier wing mount.  Of the H-Cat and H-Diver, I prefer the Diver, only because it is rarely modeled but the Cat might be more attractive to a beginner modeler and, squared off wing tips (Cat) are easier to build than rounded tips (diver).

Reading this post over - I was thinking .15 when I wrote it, but most of everything would apply to 1/2 A as well. y1
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2007, 08:55:31 AM »
The best thing about profile carrier, be it 36, 15, or 1/2A (if it ever happens) is the design freedom.   No need to copy someone else's design, you can just draw up and build whatever you want.  As long as it's proportioned something like a model airplane, it will fly fine.

Some events offer 10 points for "scale-like", but the judging is quite generous on this.

15 Profile at The Brodak is something of a challenge.  They give 10 points for a Brodak kit or design, but they don't say designed for carrier.   It's a Brodak Junior Lightnening Streak.  And yes, the fat airfoil hinders both the high and low speeds, but rules are rules.
Paul Smith

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2007, 09:16:38 AM »
OK so I am getting a picture here...I think I am ready to order in ribs. I am looking at putting the bellcrank outside of the wing and locating its mount so that it can be placed on either the right, left or center of the wing...up to the builder. This should make hooking it up and adjusting it easier.
Thanks  H^^
Larry

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2007, 02:16:15 PM »
Larry, What plane did you decide to go with? #^  Inquiring minds etc...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 02:33:18 PM by Pete Cunha »
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2007, 09:06:54 PM »
We will probably make 3 or all 4 of these at the same time.
Seafire (carrier version of the Spitfire), Zero, Helldiver, and Hellcat
They will all be very similar to one anther and use the same plan. They will also fit into our war bird series. I know....low wing....but that is what we are using on our current war birds and a couple of these new ones were designed by Walt Musciano(without the carrier stuff)
Larry

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2007, 08:50:23 AM »
Larry,  looks like all the pros and cons have been posted here.   I like the idea of a small throttle control line model for the youngsters.  George Lieb I think said it best,  "The kids like the option of doing touch and goes as well as doing taxing around the circle".  Also when learning if they get dizzy, just throttle back and land.  How about letting me know when the carrier planes you listed might be ready.  By the way I still have my Jr Ringmaster that the hook is the tail skid.  It does work.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Offline roger

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Re: 1/2A CARRIER WHY?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2007, 03:01:02 PM »
 H^^now if blackhawk could make a real nice looking plane  that would be great #^ #^ #^ y1 ;D :) ;)


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