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Author Topic: VEE Tail Horn  (Read 1650 times)

Offline Motorman

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VEE Tail Horn
« on: October 23, 2024, 06:16:16 PM »
How do you set up the elevator horn on a Vee tail? Seems you would need two horns but they would swing in different arcs.   


Thanks,
MM :)

Online Trostle

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2024, 07:32:21 PM »
How do you set up the elevator horn on a Vee tail? Seems you would need two horns but they would swing in different arcs.   


Thanks,
MM :)

Use a single horn with the so-called "Lucky Boxes" in each elevator.  Done correctly, there will be little slop and will not get the asymmetrical control response if two horns are used.

I built a "Swee Pea" from Cal Smith plans, Mechanix Illustrated, June 1948, 43" Span.  The dihedral on each side of the V-tail is 35 degrees.  Used the "Lucky Boxes".  There is no "play", no "slop", no binding in the elevator controls during full deflection, approximately 35 or 40 degrees up and down.

Also, "Lucky Boxes" with a single horn works on swept elevators (and flaps).

Keith
« Last Edit: October 27, 2024, 10:01:14 AM by Trostle »

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2024, 09:59:38 PM »
Depends on how severe the "V" angle is. What are you planning on using?

Offline Motorman

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2024, 07:49:29 AM »
Looking at the Brodak kit of the Stinger.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2024, 08:07:06 AM »
If you follow Dales design it will work.  I had a Stringer built off his plans. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2024, 06:02:44 PM »
I've built a couple V tailed airplanes.   I may re-do one as it is coming up on N30 status.   (Midnight Lace)  Each side was lifted about 30 degrees.   The arcs for the horns is pretty huge.  I used split horns with a hardy 'T' pushrod centered between the two horns and this worked well.  The type has one near fatal flaw though as a competitive stunt ship I learned.   When flying in stronger wind or turbulence the stab suddenly doesn't know if it wants to be a stab or a rudder.  A couple times when flying the ship in the weird air of the old Topeka field it did a half barrel roll during some manuever-then rolled back and stayed out of the ground.  When flying in 'stunt heaven' air it was delightful. A TON of handle bias was necessary as a square required about 8-10 degrees of 'up' and 30 degrees of down for the same feel and radius.

Dave
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Offline Motorman

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2024, 08:56:12 PM »
Thanks Dave, I think I'll leave the Vee tails for my speed ships.

MM :)

Online Trostle

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2024, 10:18:18 PM »
Thanks Dave, I think I'll leave the Vee tails for my speed ships.

MM :)

Before you give up on V-Tails, you should at least try the Lucky Boxes as a bench test.


Keith

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2024, 02:01:05 AM »
Keith,

I'm having a little trouble seeing this. It seems that the joiner wire would simply be a vee, with the horn arm right at the apex? And all the support of the horn would be provided by the surface hinges? (ie. no joiner bearings.) Otherwise, I have to admit that I cannot visualize this concept, and I don't have any Stinger plans to look at. I have flown a Quickie Rat with a v-tail. It was not responsive enough with just a single-sided elevator. It was modified to have control surfaces on both sides. The issue with that, because it was a profile, was that the pushrod was not symmetric and the loading and vibration repeatedly failed the hinges....  Of course, a stunter shouldn't shake like a racer, but any kind of asymmetric pushrod setup is not ideal.

Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2024, 02:40:15 AM »
Hi

If you google any RC slope soarer forum, especially F3F, you’ll see plenty of V-tail/elevator builds/solutions.

They have pretty high surface loads too.  Might help?


Online Trostle

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2024, 07:51:27 AM »
Keith,

I'm having a little trouble seeing this. It seems that the joiner wire would simply be a vee, with the horn arm right at the apex? And all the support of the horn would be provided by the surface hinges? (ie. no joiner bearings.) Otherwise, I have to admit that I cannot visualize this concept, and I don't have any Stinger plans to look at. I have flown a Quickie Rat with a v-tail. It was not responsive enough with just a single-sided elevator. It was modified to have control surfaces on both sides. The issue with that, because it was a profile, was that the pushrod was not symmetric and the loading and vibration repeatedly failed the hinges....  Of course, a stunter shouldn't shake like a racer, but any kind of asymmetric pushrod setup is not ideal.

I will have to make this quick as I am leaving for Las Vegas in a few minutes.

The horn is bushed/hinged to the stabilizer as you would do any horn.  The horn wire "legs" go into the Lucky Boxes.  It takes a bit to locate the hinge line of the horn and the correct angle to bend those legs.  The diameter of the legs is the space allowed in the lucky boxes.  Done correctly, the only slop will be the normal slop between the pushrod and the horn and little discernible friction of the legs moving in the lucky boxes.

Keith

Offline Scientifiction .

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2024, 09:46:07 PM »
In the 60s the poms used  bicycle Spokes for pushrods , on Combat Wings .
As the ends got the stop on it , and was machined , the were a ' accurate ' thing . and REAL STEEL .
unlike today ? ? ,
However , you can use two , Bound & soldered . 3 or 4 inch Fwd , so they can ' torsion ' a little .
Original Phantom had dual horns & anhedral aft , Palmer Flaps , so had thousands of pushrods .



Real ones had a clean larger o.d.  section , against the flange . once . B S A or Raleigh . Triumph ?


Raleigh Bicycle Company
The Raleigh Bicycle Company is a British bicycle manufacturer based in Nottingham, England and founded by Woodhead and Angois in 1885. Using Raleigh as their brand name, it is one of the oldest bicycle companies in the world.


Offline Dave Hull

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2024, 10:48:04 PM »
Air Miseries,

The way I heard the story was a little different. The Raleigh Company went back much further than you mention in Nottinghamshire. Essentially, Sir Walter Raleigh raised the taxes so much in his lands that all of the peasants had to give up driving their MiniCoopers and take to riding two-wheel contraptions that they called “Raleighs” for obvious disparaging reasons. Contraptions which blew tires made of rotten rubber at an amazing rate, and which risked life and limb regularly when a bit of mud or water confounded the pushrod-enabled Sturmey-Archers. All of which production set off an economic boom in the ‘Shire, despite it not being declared an economic enterprise zone.

Later, some linguist skilled in Latin came up with the idea of calling these Raleighs “bi-cycles,” and the name stuck. But by then Sir Robin Hood and most of the countryside had switched over from driving electric MiniCoopers to eBikes with carbon composite wheels (better for Labor’s carbon credits) and the merry men fell on hard times—no one was buying many Raleighs any more, much to the consternation of Master Richard Woodenhead. (No relation to any current politicians.) Thusly and therefore, there were several fabricators, I think some have mentioned Little John, who while of great strength of arm, did not have much adaptability of skills, and kept making these metal spokes but had to find new uses for them.

No, Sir Hooker could not use them in Merlins. No, Sir Sidney (the famous Camm grinder of mid-century) could not use them. There have long been rumors that a great quantity were purchased for the TSR2 program—not for any traditional use—but for shrapnel in the secret WoodenBomb program, but that is likely just hearsay. That left Little John of Nottingham with no choice but to pedal (so to speak) his spokes to the likes of BSA, and when that dried up, to the clever blokes at the SMAE. And here we are today fighting the battle over the use of carbon-tube pushrods (which will clearly save the planet) or Sir Walter Raleigh’s despotic plan to infest all of the world with steel pushrods in control line modeling.

Or so the story was explained to me by those involved in Heavy Stunt….

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: VEE Tail Horn
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2024, 10:39:19 AM »
Air Miseries,

The way I heard the story was a little different. The Raleigh Company went back much further than you mention in Nottinghamshire. Essentially, Sir Walter Raleigh raised the taxes so much in his lands that all of the peasants had to give up driving their MiniCoopers and take to riding two-wheel contraptions that they called “Raleighs” for obvious disparaging reasons. Contraptions which blew tires made of rotten rubber at an amazing rate, and which risked life and limb regularly when a bit of mud or water confounded the pushrod-enabled Sturmey-Archers. All of which production set off an economic boom in the ‘Shire, despite it not being declared an economic enterprise zone.

Later, some linguist skilled in Latin came up with the idea of calling these Raleighs “bi-cycles,” and the name stuck. But by then Sir Robin Hood and most of the countryside had switched over from driving electric MiniCoopers to eBikes with carbon composite wheels (better for Labor’s carbon credits) and the merry men fell on hard times—no one was buying many Raleighs any more, much to the consternation of Master Richard Woodenhead. (No relation to any current politicians.) Thusly and therefore, there were several fabricators, I think some have mentioned Little John, who while of great strength of arm, did not have much adaptability of skills, and kept making these metal spokes but had to find new uses for them.

No, Sir Hooker could not use them in Merlins. No, Sir Sidney (the famous Camm grinder of mid-century) could not use them. There have long been rumors that a great quantity were purchased for the TSR2 program—not for any traditional use—but for shrapnel in the secret WoodenBomb program, but that is likely just hearsay. That left Little John of Nottingham with no choice but to pedal (so to speak) his spokes to the likes of BSA, and when that dried up, to the clever blokes at the SMAE. And here we are today fighting the battle over the use of carbon-tube pushrods (which will clearly save the planet) or Sir Walter Raleigh’s despotic plan to infest all of the world with steel pushrods in control line modeling.

Or so the story was explained to me by those involved in Heavy Stunt….
  In my younger years Raleigh's were a popular cigarette....but Dave....you've obviously been smoking something else.....carry on.

Dave
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