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Author Topic: Vacuum forming for CL stunt  (Read 643 times)

Offline Donald R Olson

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Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« on: May 03, 2025, 12:08:54 PM »
I’ve been experimenting with 3d printing and vacuum forming for a few years now. I think I have it down really well. I showed some pics to Paul Emmerson, Circuit Flyer / Climb and Dive creator. He suggested I post some info on how I’ve been doing this here on Stunthanger. Paul’s timers are great by the way. They’re all I use anymore.
Unfortunately, the DYI vacuum formers that use a shop vac really can’t draw good enough to produce good quality results. I built this machine back in 2020. There are plans available online for sale of a very similar machine. I didn’t buy them, but I took a good look at it and adapted the design to fit the parts and materials I wanted to use.  I 'll go into how I make the bucks using a 3d printer in the next post. I want to see if I am getting the pictures attached before I proceed.

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2025, 12:34:13 PM »
Here is the latest plane I’m working on. It has several vacuum formed parts. The cowling, top and bottom hatches, and the canopy / turtle deck. All of then have been formed on bucks I 3d printed.  Next post I'll show the 3d printed bucks and some pulls.

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2025, 01:19:15 PM »
Here’s a solid canopy in case I decide to go without a pilot. The next is the cowling buck. When 3d printing bucks, they need to be able to stand up to the heat and pressure of vacuum forming over it. These bucks have 8 side layers and 10 top layers. If you plan to form clear parts, the buck has to be perfectly smooth. If there is even a tiny line in it, it will show in the clean plastic. PLA or PETG are difficult to sand perfectly smooth. To make it easier, I sand the buck to get a lot of the layer lines out with 60 and 80 grit on an orbital sander.  Then I form oner it with .020 HIPS (high impact polystyrene). Then I will glue that to the buck. Then sand it smooth with 240, 320, and 400. The HIPS sands faster and cleaner than 3d print filament.  Also note the small holes in the areas that have a tight angle. I'll post more later, with a little more advice on how to make a successful buck and what are the best materials to use. 

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2025, 01:21:17 PM »
I want to know more about your vacuum table. I spy a vacuum pump and an air compressor tank...are you using the tank as a vacuum reservoir for a quick, hard pull-down?
Is the "up" position enclosing heater elements or hot bulbs so that you heat to visual observation of "sag," and then you pull the plastic down over the buck?
Can the table be converted to "bag and capture" resins from fiberglass work? Or is this all "plastic pulls?"

Slack-jawed however you do this...Bravo!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2025, 08:08:20 AM by 944_Jim »

Offline CircuitFlyer

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2025, 07:50:27 PM »
That's an impressive machine and awesome work. How many inches Hg of vacuum can that pump attain?  I'd like to hear more of the details about the materials you have found that work the best.
Paul Emmerson
Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2025, 07:58:34 PM »
I can show some pics from when I built it. It has a vacuum pump connected to an air tank salvaged from an old air compressor. The tank allows the vacuum to be built up and stored, then it is able to pull the air out quickly. It has enough volume to evacuate all the air even on large pulls.  The heater is a series of nichrome wires. They are arranged into 4 zones.  This allows you to only heat the center and expand outward up to the full 4’ if your pull is that big. It can accommodate sheets as small as 8” x 8”, or as large as 24” x 48”.  There is a vacuum regulator that I bought from machine surplus, Next Day Automation. They are online.  You’ll notice that the platen has one large hole in the center. It doesn’t have a bunch of small holes drilled all over the surface of the platen. This has several advantages. First there is no chamber below the platen that needs to be evacuated. The buck is placed on a piece of window screen or raised off the platen by blocks or washers.

Online Brent Williams

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2025, 08:07:50 PM »
Very nice work. What are the weights of those formed parts? 
HIPS (high impact polystyrene) is around 66lbs a cubic foot.
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2025, 09:06:58 PM »
The sheet is squeezed between the top and bottom frames. I use HIPS, High Impact Polystyrene for solid parts. PETG clear is what I use for canopies and other parts. Other materials that can be thermoformed is ABS and many types of acrylics, Lexan is a brand name of another clear material. HIPS is by far the easiest and most forgiving material I've found. It's pretty tough, but not as tough as PETG or others but it makes good-looking parts. It sands well, glues to wood with CA with an excellent bound, and paint will stick to it. It's commonly available from plastic suppliers. It is available in black and white, in thickness from .020, .030, .040, .060, .100, and .250. Any thicker than that and it’s not going to pull down.  .250 would be a difficult time getting it to come out. The pump will pull 29 inches Hg of mercury, but I usually set it to 25 inches Hg of mercury. It pumps down to 25 inHg pretty quickly but to get that last 4 inHg doubles the time it takes. The machine has a valve and a port on the side to allow vacuum to be tapped to use for vacuum bagging or other purposes. I have a YouTube channel I used to do but I haven’t posted in a few years. It has safety and operation instructions for this vacuum former. I made it for members of TC Maker to be able to use the machine. I will post a link.
 
Since I made that video I change a few things. The main change is I removed the solenoid valve and replaced it with a ball valve. That way you can vary the speed that the vacuum is applied. This is necessary because different thicknesses and materials require different pull rates.
On my YouTube channel there is even a video of the first vacuum former I built probably 10 years ago.  I will soon post more on how I design the bucks and how parts compare in weight and strength compared to balsa or other materials use to build stunt planes.

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2025, 08:06:45 AM »
Thanks so much for the details!

I hope to build one about the size of a shoe box (I fly 1/2A). Your notes provide enough detail so I can replicate in miniature. I hope to use a freon or propane tank for my vacuum storage.

Given the size I hope to build, this places my heated size no bigger than a large counter top toaster oven.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2025, 05:41:53 PM »
Very impressive
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2025, 07:00:09 PM »
Unfortunately, the DYI vacuum formers that use a shop vac really can’t draw good enough to produce good quality results. I built this machine back in 2020. There are plans available online for sale of a very similar machine. I didn’t buy them, but I took a good look at it and adapted the design to fit the parts and materials I wanted to use.  I 'll go into how I make the bucks using a 3d printer in the next post. I want to see if I am getting the pictures attached before I proceed.

     Those parts look amazing, I would never even try to do anything like that!

     While I know other people who have success, I have had nothing but frustration trying to vacu-form things, or even work with pre-made parts. As you note, the home job systems are generally awful and I don't have the space to make a dedicated machine.

    What always frustrated me when making parts or complete models using vacu-form is that the parts, at least those made from styrene, tended to fail or split along stretch marks or grain lines. Is that just because it's styrene, or is there some other issue?  Some rocket kits back in the late 60's/early 70s were nearly impossible to build as supplied just because every time you tried to cut out, glue, or bend the  vacu-form, it would split or the cut would take off in another direction.

     Brett

   

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 11:47:13 AM »
It took a while for me to get back to this post, but I did get to weighing some of the parts. I really don’t have a way to compare to other similar parts, but others out there probably can compare to past experience from their own builds. I’m posting some pics of the parts on my scale and I will list the weight in OZs and grams.

Cowling: 19.5 grams or .68 oz. This includes a 1/8 thick x 5/32 wide plywood nose ring glued in place.

Lower hatch: 48.5 grams or 1.71 oz. The hatch has a 1/8 plywood frame glue inside it. I could of used light ply or balsa to make the frame lighter but I wanted it to stand up to a lot of punishment. I’m pretty clumsy in the field and don’t want it to break.

The top hatch: 12.5 grams or .44 oz. It has no framework. It screws to the fuselage and will only be opened if I need access to the ECS.

The canopy/turtle deck: 26.9 grams or .94 oz. This is large as canopies go. It’s about 26” long.

The cockpit and pilot: 9.3 grams or .32 oz. It’s been painted and the helmet has a 1/8” wood dowel glue into it so I can turn the head side to side. I still need to print a decal with gauges.

Offline Donald R Olson

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 12:46:47 PM »
Another thing to keep in mind, when these parts are painted there is no grain to be filled. It usually only needs a single coat of primer. There is no primer on the pilot/cockpit.
I haven’t had any issues with cracking or grain lines. If you try to use too thin of material it will tend to crease or crack, but for the most part I haven’t had that happen.
The material I like to use best is High Impact Polystyrene (HIPS). PETG is good as well. PETG is tougher. It is hard to crack it. Locally it is only available in clear. It doesn’t pull as easily as HIPS. It has a smaller temperature range to get the best results. HIPS isn’t as tough, but it sands easily and is very forgiving with forming. Both materials have a much greater tensile strength than balsa parts. It glues to balsa and ply with CA and has a good bond. I find that most parts can be pulled from 0.030 or 0.020 thick sheets. The hatches and canopy are all pulled from 0.030” stock. The pilot is 0.020. The cowling was actually 0.060. It is a tall part to pull. By the time it is pulled, it’s around .020” thick at the base. It’s more like .035 at the top. It was a challenge to get it right. I started with .040 stock, and it would web badly. Once I got it dialed in, I was able to make multiple cowls. The buck is taller than the finished part. This is because when the part is taller than it is wide the plastic sheet will tend to web in the corners. This is because the sheet stretches when it is first pulled over the buck. When vacuum is applied there is too much excess plastic. As it is pulled tight to the buck the material will fold. If the buck is taller than the finished part the webbed portion can be trimmed off. It was a learning experience to get quality parts. I found a lot of good information on the internet and trial and error. Now I feel I can produce quality parts. I’m working on making them lighter. In a future build I am going to do an all HIPS skin with a laser cut balsa skeleton. The trouble is I have a least 5 designs I want to build that are more conventional construction. I’ve gone on way too long for this post but if anyone wants to know some good points on how to 3d print the bucks I can ramble on that too.

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Vacuum forming for CL stunt
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 03:45:03 PM »
but if anyone wants to know some good points on how to 3d print the bucks I can ramble on that too.

Yes, please. I feel like I'm back in school. I'm learning a lot and hope to leverage all of this!

Thanks so much for taking the time to share.

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