Author Topic: Soldering lead-out lines ? (Read 5152 times)

Rob Killick · « **on:** May 04, 2006, 08:55:03 PM »

I've been experiencincing difficulties soldering my lead-out lines ( .024/95# test).
I usually wrap with fine copper wire to sieze the lead-out line nd solder.
The problem I'm experiencing is the solder is not taking to the steel wire .
I'm using a Weller 100/140 watt pistol type soldering iron , with Kester flux and 60/40 rosin core solder .
Should I use a mini torch , for more heat ?
The lead-out wire i the kind supplied in the Brodak kits .
I've never had this problem before , until I started using this type of wire .
Is swaging (using crimp tubes) a better way of tying the lead-outs ?
I don't want to remove the tensility of the lead-outs by applying too much heat .
Any other sure fire ways of tying lead-outs ?

RC Storick · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2006, 09:02:06 PM »

DO NOT SOLDER LEAD OUTS! Just wrap with wire and epoxy them.

Rob Killick · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2006, 09:09:29 PM »

Message recieved and understood

Thanks Mr. Storick

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #3 on:** May 04, 2006, 09:19:15 PM »

As an alternative to epoxy I just slip a piece of heat shrink tubing over the finished wrap and shrink it down. Epoxy always equals a mess around here, and you want the finished project to be flexible so it isn't brittle. The heatshrink tubing also looks neat when its done. I picked up 4 pieces, each piece about 4 feet long at an electrical store several years ago. Between the primary colors and clear I can color code or coordinate with the trim on the plane.

RC Storick · « **Reply #4 on:** May 04, 2006, 09:33:09 PM »

Quote from: Rob Killick on May 04, 2006, 09:09:29 PM

Message received and understood

Thanks Mr. Storick

I am only in my 50tys I do not deserve being called mr. yet. I will reserve that for my dad age 88.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2006, 01:42:40 PM »

What Mr.s Storick didn't say was that soldering the leadouts creates a stress riser and also make the leadout cable brittle. It's likely to break right at the edge of the solder joint. Definately a bad thing.

Tom Dugan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2006, 02:17:27 PM »

This is good to know. I understand about the stress riser. Im curious if the leadout is still wrapped with copper thread and then epoxied?

Thomas

builditright · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:39:00 PM »

here's a link on my site which is Tom Morris' info on wrapping lines

http://www.builtrightflyright.com/MiscHelpPgs/pdf/WrappingLines.pdf

Rob Killick · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:46:04 PM »

Thanks Guys

I guess I have been lucky ...
I have always soldered my lead-outs

I will definitely use the epoxy method , or the heat-shrink method .
Thanks again

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2006, 05:29:14 PM »

all monoline flyers must be lucky also that is what we do with speed jobs 150 lbs pull test on my d speed. i trust the solider joint over epoxy any day of the week. now stunt is a differant story i think

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2006, 06:12:02 PM »

Quote from: Joey Mathison 9806 on May 05, 2006, 05:29:14 PM

all monoline flyers must be lucky also that is what we do with speed jobs 150 lbs pull test on my d speed. i trust the solider joint over epoxy any day of the week. now stunt is a differant story i think

Very different.... At one point in my life I was teaching experienced technicians how to solder to NASA specs. We went to great lengths to prevent wicking.. Simply put, wicking is when solder flows up under the insulation of stranded wire creating a hard point/stress riser. Seems as though several failures and crashes were attributed to wires breaking under the insulation, guess why?

When an experienced CL flier tells you something will fail, I highly recommend you listen. He isn't saying this just to blow wind, you can bet he has been there and paid the price. You may get away with soldered/epoxy coated/crimped leadouts for years but someday it will bite you and guess which airplane it's going to destroy.. You can bet it won't be that old battered Ringmaster or Skyray.

Personally I wouldn't even use epoxy except for maybe a small drop to secure the ends of the wire wrap. Solder is an absolute no-no on stranded anything you will use in/on a gas powered airplane period.

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2006, 10:19:10 PM »

all my speed stuff is using solid line. there is still a proper method that needs to be followed. do not over heat and don't solider the last 1/4" of the copper wraping.

RC Storick · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2006, 10:21:39 PM »

I would agree that on solid lines soldering is OK but it is never OK on braided line as it has and will in the future cause a stress riser and fail. On your best airplane to boot!

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2006, 02:31:02 AM »

TIP: Epoxy dries to different tempers depending what you thin it with. When I wrap leadouts, I thin it with denatured alcohol. This leaves the epoxy somewhat more flexible than acetone which makes it more brittle. Use regular 5min epoxy, don't use finishing resin, which is also more brittle.

EricV

Doug Moon · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2006, 03:53:56 PM »

The epoxy should only be one tiny drop to hold the wrap end in place. You should not smoothe the wrap in epoxy. There should be no solder there either.

Epoxy can create a stress riser as well. I have a friend to swore by coating the whole wrap in epoxy. But then after he lost not one but two full blown stunters to broken LOs at the wrap he went to wrapping and one drop of epoxy to hold the wrap in place.

The wrap is what keeps the lines and LO in place. The epoxy and solder over the wrap is not needed and can cause failure.

I know it is hard to see in the photo. But my wraps end in the middle of the wrap. Then I lay it back over the wrap and one drop of epoxy holds it down for good.

I do this on my lead outs as well as my flying lines.

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2006, 09:08:21 PM »

I usually wrap lines, but have gone almost exclusively to crimping leadouts. With lines, I am afraid I may damage the lines or create a stress riser I didn't mean to. With the larger leadout cables, I feel more confident, and think my crimps look neater than my wraps. Just personal idiosyncrasy.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2006, 09:41:33 PM »

What does karma mean by your profile?

brucefinley · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2006, 08:15:52 PM »

If you bring happiness into the inner circle positive karma will follow.

Bruce

Busby · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2006, 03:50:04 PM »

I have always wrapped my lines and leadouts,over the years I have had solder and epoxy fail. For the last 6 years I have been wrapping them over a layer of Tightbond 2,
It is weather resistant and remains flexible. It is put on at a thin coat at each layer of wrap and 3 thin coats as a top coat.
It has worked really well for me.
Busby

Randy Powell · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2006, 04:19:25 PM »

>>I usually wrap lines, but have gone almost exclusively to crimping leadouts. <<

I wouldn't do it, but others have successfully.

I have a friend that crimps his flying lines. Has really nice ferrels and a trick crimping tool. He's never had a failure, but then, he only uses lines for a season at most. Maybe 60-80 flights then pitches them and makes more. I've been using the same lines for several seasons (copper wrapped ends with heat shrink to retain the copper). I clean them regularly and maintain them. I only change them out if I get a bend or a kink of any kind. I have one set that has probably 400-450 flight on them. The remain perfect and I inspect them often. Guess it depends on how you look at things.

Leester · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2006, 08:09:22 PM »

Also watch those dandelions, My lines hung up on them yesterday at take off and only dumb luck let me save it.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #21 on:** May 08, 2006, 08:44:08 PM »

To all, the old DOC here. I used to wrap all my leadouts and flying lines. The only time I ever soldered was when I was in team race competition. Then it was only on the airplane end as the connection is inside the wing. I have now gone completely to Carl Shoupes swegging method of lines and leadouts. So far no failures even on the Texes Quicky Rats. Now there is a big difference between swegging and crimping. My flying partner says swegging is what is used the real airplanes we ride in. DOC Holliday

Bill Little · « **Reply #22 on:** May 13, 2006, 09:53:44 PM »

Quote from: Randy on May 08, 2006, 04:19:25 PM

>
(snip)
. I have one set that has probably 400-450 flight on them. The remain perfect and I inspect them often. Guess it depends on how you look at things.

I am looking forward to the year I retire and find someone to fly with! "400-450 flights"!
I ain't had that many flights since I started back 5-6 years ago, total! Much less on one set of lines. I *think* I have had, let's see now......................since last October at Huntersville.............. (I got in 10 flights that weekend!!!!!!).....oh yeah,........ that would be "0" flights in 2006! And I got a contest on June 3-4 (I think)........ in Advanced still......... but I know I will get at least 4 flights during the contest!

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #23 on:** May 13, 2006, 10:05:50 PM »

The reason the solder doesn't stick is that the lines are stainless.

Bill Little · « **Reply #24 on:** May 13, 2006, 10:15:55 PM »

Even though I haven't soldered my LOs in over 30 years now, if the copper wire is tightly wrapped, and correctly doubled over, the solder wouldn't have to stick to the LO wire itself. If the solder has flowed correctly through the copper wrapping, the lines will never come apart.

Dick Fowler · « **Reply #25 on:** May 14, 2006, 12:16:16 PM »

Can someone post a picture of Carl Shoup's "swaging" pliers? I suspect it really produces a crimp as opposed to a swage.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2006, 02:02:12 PM »

>>I am looking forward to the year I retire and find someone to fly with!<<

Bill, retire and move here. I'll fly with you. I just hope to have a regular field soon. I guess I'll just have to finish the one on my property.

Graham Collins · « **Reply #27 on:** September 02, 2006, 04:24:08 PM »

Quote from: jeholliday on May 08, 2006, 08:44:08 PM

T I have now gone completely to Carl Shoupes swegging method of lines and leadouts. So far no failures even on the Texes Quicky Rats. Now there is a big difference between swegging and crimping. My flying partner says swegging is what is used the real airplanes we ride in. DOC Holliday

Sounds intersting, can someone post a link, reference or pointer to Carl's swegging method please.

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada

Ralph Wenzel (d) · « **Reply #28 on:** September 06, 2006, 03:16:19 AM »

Quote from: Dick Fowler on May 14, 2006, 12:16:16 PM

Can someone post a picture of Carl Shoup's "swaging" pliers? I suspect it really produces a crimp as opposed to a swage.

Hi Dick,
I had a set of Carl's pliers but had to return them as my hand strength is woefully inadequate to get good results. However, I can guarantee that they produce a true swage, as the length of the tube actually increasses as the diameter is "shrunk. Carl furnishes a "test swage" with each pliers, and if you cross-cut it in the middle, you can see that the copper tube has "flowed" into the strands of the cable.

Greg L Bahrman · « **Reply #29 on:** September 06, 2006, 01:37:09 PM »

It would be nice to see a proper sequence of wrapping. I always have a major problem of keeping the wrap close to the loop or eyelet or whatever it's called. If it's not tight the cable just pops over it and it falls out. I hate it. Then trying to hold the cable while wraping is a pain in the a$$ as its spring stronger than the small copper wire. Did I mention I hate it!!! I hate it!!!!!!!

What am I doing wrong?

Lane Puckett · « **Reply #30 on:** September 06, 2006, 02:10:53 PM »

I agree that wrapping is the way to go.

However.
It always bothers me to see in the AMA rulebook the requirement(recommendation?) to solder or epoxy the wraps.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/Rulebook/cline.pdf#search=%22ama%20rule%20book%20control%20line%22

5.3.2 references figure 3

figure 3 states to coat the wraps with epoxy or solder to secure.

This should be the current rule book but might not be. I just grabbed the first one off the net I found.

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #31 on:** September 06, 2006, 08:53:10 PM »

Greg,

I use a hemostat to hold the thimble--I hold the hemostat in a small vice.
Sort of a poor man's fly tying rig, I guess.

After getting the line end or leadout around the thimble twice, I wrap one end of the serving wire around the jaw of the hemostat a couple of times, just to hold it secure.
Then the real fun begins--actually it's pretty easy from this point.

I use basically the same process to wrap leadouts when bushing a bell crank.

I'm sure there is a better way, but I don't know it.

Jim

Author Topic: Soldering lead-out lines ? (Read 5152 times)

Eric Viglione

Alan Hahn