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Author Topic: Reducers, which one is the correct one?  (Read 2867 times)

Offline Oregon_Flyer

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Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« on: July 13, 2006, 11:16:21 AM »
Much has been posted about reducers.  I am getting mixed technical information.  Can someone post a link to an authoritative site that dispels rumors and states why you use a reducer that is labeled for Nitrate with Nitrate dope and one that says Butyrate for Butyrate dope?  I an not talking about experiences some have had, good or bad results as there are a lot of other factors to include, just need the reasoning behind this issue.

Marv

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 08:59:43 PM »
Much has been posted about reducers.  I am getting mixed technical information.  Can someone post a link to an authoritative site that dispels rumors and states why you use a reducer that is labeled for Nitrate with Nitrate dope and one that says Butyrate for Butyrate dope?  I an not talking about experiences some have had, good or bad results as there are a lot of other factors to include, just need the reasoning behind this issue.

Marv

Hi Marv,

Not the answer you want, because I don't get into the scientific part of it.  There's a hidden message in it, though.


1. Lacquer thinner is lacquer thinner (look at the ingredients). 

2. Dopes are "lacquer".

3. Some lacquer thinners are formulated slightly different in how fast they dry, etc., and how "pure" they are,  but are made of the same ingredients.

4.  I have only used Dupont 3608S in ALL my dopes (all nitrates and butyrates) plus all my acrylic lacquers for over 15 years.  Why??  Because it works, it's a high grade lacquer thinner.  And I don't have to pay the extra price that Sig, Brodak, etc., have to pay to buy it and re-label it as a model product and charge quite a bit more.

BTW:  "Reducers" are used in enamels and urethanes.  Thinner is used in dope and lacquer.  y1  (why?  I don't know, but that's the way it is!)

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Offline Oregon_Flyer

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 07:38:32 AM »
Bill,

Thanks Pard.  I was darn near sure my thinking was correct but before I get started on my next painting project I wanted to be sure as I can be.  Brodaks new paint supplier says that the two "thinners" they call them reducers BTW are formulated differently to eliminate the problem of the paint craziing and cracking.  I am going to be investing a lot of time masking and re-masking [dad-burn you Randy Powell You made me do this  :-X] that if it goes Sout I'm gonna be one unhappy camper.  Now you, I totally trust.  And Thank you for spelling out the thinner - reducer issue, there's a lot of misinformation going around.  Me? I always called anything that thinned "Paint" a thinner.

Marv

Offline Ron King

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2006, 12:52:53 PM »
This is to add some more info to Bill's reply:

Dupont 3608S lacquer thinner is the fast drying stuff.

Dupont 3602S is slower drying thinner.

I have had great success using 3608 with Sig and Brodak dopes, mix or match. I use retarder to control blushing in our local humidity.

I have not had the same success with 3602. It did not work as well with Brodak dope as it did with Sig.

Hope this helps,

Ron
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Offline rustler

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2006, 01:02:18 PM »
What is a reducer please? ???
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Ron King

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 01:48:23 PM »
It's another word for Thinner.

I see it used more with epoxies and urethanes than with enamels and lacquers.
Ron King
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 Amateurs practice until they get it right; Pros practice until they cannot get it wrong.

Offline Oregon_Flyer

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 03:21:57 PM »
Hi Ron,

Who uses it most, Dunno, but if you hang around the automotive crowd it is used an awful lot so since they use 2 part ummmm, paint?  you probably nailed that on dead on.

Marv

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 04:31:25 AM »
Where do you get the Dupont thinner? Auto Parts stores near me sell regular and medium thinner. Referring to the dry time of their in-house brand, but presently haven't located a Dupont supplier . Ideas? Doing a web search did not help. I live in Philadelphia, PA.

Thanx


Offline Oregon_Flyer

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2006, 07:35:00 AM »
Hi Dennis,

Here's a couple if ideas to try.  First, google DuPont and go to the link in their site for paint, automotive finishes or do a site search for acrylic reducer.  Use the yellow pages to find a dealer for automotive paint, or look up a body shop and ask for the paint guy and see if he uses DuPont and where to buy it.  If memory serves, Nason is a division of Dupont and from there you can source which Dupont product you want.

Hope this helps

Marv




Offline rustler

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2006, 02:49:20 PM »
Thanks for the info. folks.

Ty - surely that should be "Fahgettabartit"? >:D
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2006, 02:11:38 AM »
Guys, still looking for Dupont reducers. No one seems to carry Dupont stuff in the Philly area. I am still checking. There's a lot of lacguer thinner around in the automotive paint stores. Usually fast dry or medium dry. It's quality thinner according to the men behind the counter. Any other lacquer thinner that you know of to work with Brodak dope?

Offline Ron King

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2006, 05:51:53 AM »
Guys, still looking for Dupont reducers. No one seems to carry Dupont stuff in the Philly area. I am still checking. There's a lot of lacguer thinner around in the automotive paint stores. Usually fast dry or medium dry. It's quality thinner according to the men behind the counter. Any other lacquer thinner that you know of to work with Brodak dope?

Dennis,

That's strange, considering DuPont is just down the road in Wilmington. Have you tried for a dealer in Delaware? I lived in Wilmington for a time and there were some good auto stores on Route 13 in the northern side of town. I used to buy nitro from one of those guys.

It took me a couple of years before I worked up the nerve to try DuPont with Brodak and Sig dope. I learned that 3608 works, 3602 doesn't (for me at least). I have been told that any high quality lacquer thinner will work, but I would certainly test it on a beater plane before I shot a Nats bird with it.  %^

Hope this helps,

Ron
Ron King
AMA AVP District 4
Wannabe Stunt Pilot since 1963
 Amateurs practice until they get it right; Pros practice until they cannot get it wrong.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2006, 08:25:48 AM »
Make sure when you find the Dupont thinner that it is 3608S.  It must have the "S" suffix.

There are other suffixs for 3608, and so far they have not been acceptable for me.  Only the "S".

Bill <><
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AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2006, 12:10:46 PM »
I know for us, the 3608 (no suffix) is no longer available. EPA rules bleed from California.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2006, 06:39:00 PM »
I found one place that can get the 3608s thinner, but does not stock it. I would have to purchase four gallons at $16 a gallon. Which means $64 dollars worth of reducer. Not much more expensive than acetone though at Home Depot which I presently use to clean my spray equipment. So I'm considering this and will look elsewhere. The automotive paint industry of course no longer uses lacquer much, a function of the EPA and more durable easier to apply finishes. Lots of our model airplane friends also have strayed away from dope. Has anyone used lacquer thinners from other brands to thin Brodak dope? I can buy that stuff up the street. Virgin lacquer thinner, either fast dry or medium dry. I'll probably get a gallon (can use it to clean spray equipment I guess) and mix and try a test patch.    

I've hit the Dupont website a few times. No phone number available, which means email inquiries only. My search for an alternate to Brodak thinner began when my primary supplier of things Brodak told me Brodak thinner was on back ourder. Called Brodak this past week, however, and it's not a problem to buy some retail from them. So the major issue is almost academic for the moment. However, I'm still interested in an alternative reducer that will work without a hastle.

Thanx to all.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2006, 04:14:45 PM »
Dennis,

I paint with dope, but not Brodak. No hit against Brodak dope, I just get it locally. I generally use Certified or Randolphs. I get it from either Aircraft Spruce online or if I'm out in Puyallup for work, I stop by Spencer Aircraft and buy it there. Certified or Randolphs, depending on what is on sale. Cost it a bit more for the thinner at about $21 a gallon for Randolphs or around $19 or Certified if I buy it mail order or $17.50 (for either)  if I stop by Spencers. I mix the clear with auto paint toners and stuff from HOK for color. Works out pretty well.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Reducers, which one is the correct one?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2006, 12:30:49 AM »
Thanks for replying Randy. I'll keep all that in mind.


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