Author Topic: Preferred Glues fo building Wings (Read 4162 times)

Allen Eshleman · « **on:** March 19, 2013, 04:01:30 AM »

I am about to glue together the wing for an Akromaster. As a wing lays in a jig, either a real jig or the pieces that serve as a jig that come with the kit, glue runs down the joint and often sticks out and has to be sanded or knifed off. I was going to use CA medium. However, that dries hard and doesn't sand well.

I have some Sig Bond - very old, but still soft. I read on one thread that one person uses Elmer's Glue. In recent years I have only built ARF/ARC's and didn't have that problem. 45 years ago I used good ole Ambroid. I think I may have had the same problem as with the CA's and epoxies.

What are you using? How do you avoid having to use a hobby knife at every joint between the LE TE and the ribs?

RandySmith · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2013, 08:23:59 AM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on March 19, 2013, 04:01:30 AM

I am about to glue together the wing for an Akromaster. As a wing lays in a jig, either a real jig or the pieces that serve as a jig that come with the kit, glue runs down the joint and often sticks out and has to be sanded or knifed off. I was going to use CA medium. However, that dries hard and doesn't sand well.

I have some Sig Bond - very old, but still soft. I read on one thread that one person uses Elmer's Glue. In recent years I have only built ARF/ARC's and didn't have that problem. 45 years ago I used good ole Ambroid. I think I may have had the same problem as with the CA's and epoxies.

What are you using? How do you avoid having to use a hobby knife at every joint between the LE TE and the ribs?

Allen

My main glue for wings is a sandable aliphatic resin like Quicksand, Guitar glue, or if I cannot get that Titebond, both are better than Elmer's white. I also use thin ca medium ca and epoxy for the controls in the wing and the leadout guide.
You also can cleanup the resin with water and use one of the curve plastic tip syringe (cheap) as a glue gun, You can lay a bead of glue down the edge of a 1/16 sheet with the syringe.
and just cap it of at the end of the day or squirt the glu back in the bottle and wash out with soap and water

Randy

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2013, 06:33:13 PM »

If I were to use CA glue, what viscosity? thin, medium, or thick?

I see that the Sig Bond is aliphatic. I think I read that it doesn't mix well with epoxy.

steven yampolsky · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2013, 08:06:32 PM »

Thin CA all around. This stuff is stronger than the wood around it just don't expect it to fill any gaps.
Never use glue to fill voids. Stick to this rule and it doesn't matter what glue you use. The only thing that will drive your glue choice is the glue working time your are comfortable with.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2013, 09:33:14 PM »

If you have glue running out of the glue joint and dripping off of the pieces, then the problem isn't that you're using the wrong kind of glue, the problem is that you're using way to much of it!

CA, epoxy, alphatic, cellulose -- it doesn't matter. Use the right amount and you'll get a strong, neat bond. Use too much and it'll dribble everywhere.

There are certain gluing jobs where one or the other glue is better, but for what you're describing I routinely use a variety of glues to suit my mood (usually of the above but epoxy), and I rarely have the glue running out of the joint.

Thin CA is very hard to control for the amount of glue that gets applied unless you use one of those really thin applicators or (if you're building something really small) you use a sewing needle or a wire with a little loop in it to transfer droplets of glue to the joint. So -- I usually don't use much thin CA. But I have it in my shop, and use it.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2013, 12:43:19 AM »

Allen,
I like to use thin CA in a plastic "Pipette" applicator.It allows you to be very careful with the amount of glue so you can keep cleanup time to a minimum.Trax

PerttiMe · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2013, 02:02:13 AM »

Glue is heavy too, even CA if you use lots of it.

Some guys with allergies seem to do just fine with PVA ("white") glues. They just take quite a while to dry and most are not good for sanding.

Geoff Goodworth · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2013, 07:50:30 AM »

For me, it depends on the wing. I used PVA (white glue) with a high solids count for my SIG Akromaster as the wing jigs up and you can clean up as you go with a piece of wet kitchen paper. For a wing with a full-depth spar like the Aeromodeller Peacemaker, I use thin CA with an applicator so I don't spill too much.

Generally, I prefer PVA or aliphatic where the balsa does not require sanding.

Paul Wood · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2013, 09:00:30 AM »

Allen,

I solved the very problem your having by applying the glue (I use Elmer's yellow carpenter's glue) with a small paint brush or a pipe cleaner. I "paint" the top 3/4 of the joint with a very thin application using the brush. Gravity will pull the glue down the final 1/4 of the joint. If not, turn the wing over and "paint" the remainder of the joint. Easy to clean the brush with a little water after use. Tim is correct about using too much glue. The strength is not in the glue.

Paul

Bill Little · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2013, 09:17:44 AM »

Hi Allen,

Unfortunately I cannot give you a straight answer on a single type of glue. I use Elmer's Glue All, thin and thick CA, Sigment, Duco, Ambroid, Sig Bond..................

It all just seems to be contingent on how I "feel" at the time, the type of wing, the type of "joint".

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2013, 10:16:36 AM »

Thanks for the help,

My wing is almost finished. I started with medium CA. Then I was going to switch to Sig Bond because I had an ancient bottle and wanted to use it. I found that it was very thick - I'm not sure it was usable. It had a grainy "ice berg" of thick stuff surrounded by liquid. Could I just stir that? I bought it either 22 years ago or 40+ years ago. Then I broke open a new CA super thin and wow - did the rest of it get glued quickly. It ran some. I think I read in another post that CA penetrates into the joint. I might try aliphatics in the future, per Randy's post and others. Thanks again.

RandySmith · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2013, 02:04:08 PM »

Quote from: Steven Yampolsky on March 21, 2013, 08:06:32 PM

Thin CA all around. This stuff is stronger than the wood around it just don't expect it to fill any gaps.
Never use glue to fill voids. Stick to this rule and it doesn't matter what glue you use. The only thing that will drive your glue choice is the glue working time your are comfortable with.

Actually NO, there are many other reasons that drive your glue choice...most epoxy is NOT sandable, CA is NOT sandable, Elmers white is NOT sandable, and it is TERRIBLE for large surfaces, so is CA, there is a place for the sandable aliphatic resin, and a place for slow cure epoxy and a place for CAs.
IF you use thin CA make sure your joints are PERFECT, as the glue will NOT fill , and it will NOT bond properly.
Another advantage of sandable Aliphatic resin is cost, one bottle last for may years, maybe dozens of planes and is very strong. Even ones that do not sand as well , like Titebond are excellent to use in model building, except never gl;ue on doublers with it or Elmers
Wing sheeting on foam is a perfect example of this, and there are so many other I cannot list them all

Randy

Randy Powell · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2013, 02:25:21 PM »

I use thin and slow set CA pretty exclusively. When gluing on sheeting. I use the thick, slow stuff as it allows me enough time to get it all on and allows for a bit of adjustment before it goes off. A bit of epoxy for certain things, but mostly CA.

steven yampolsky · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2013, 05:12:53 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on March 22, 2013, 02:04:08 PM

Actually NO, there are many other reasons that drive your glue choice...most epoxy is NOT sandable, CA is NOT sandable, Elmers white is NOT sandable, and it is TERRIBLE for large surfaces, so is CA, there is a place for the sandable aliphatic resin, and a place for slow cure epoxy and a place for CAs.
IF you use thin CA make sure your joints are PERFECT, as the glue will NOT fill , and it will NOT bond properly.
Another advantage of sandable Aliphatic resin is cost, one bottle last for may years, maybe dozens of planes and is very strong. Even ones that do not sand as well , like Titebond are excellent to use in model building, except never gl;ue on doublers with it or Elmers
Wing sheeting on foam is a perfect example of this, and there are so many other I cannot list them all

Randy,

Regular balsa wing construction method makes it possible to put together a wing without having to use glue on surface joints that are visible. Using sandable glue is not required in that case. Acromaster construction uses this method.

I understand the need for sandable glues, epoxies and do use them where applicable. In this case, I believe thin CA is just fine.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2013, 10:28:46 PM »

I hate THIN CA. I waste more of it trying to get the joint to set, even with accelerator. Not to mention what I get on my fingers.
(I'm sure it's my impatience, so don't flame me)
I use medium CA for most everything, epoxy for required strength.

RandySmith · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2013, 01:24:31 PM »

Quote from: Steven Yampolsky on March 22, 2013, 05:12:53 PM

Randy,

Regular balsa wing construction method makes it possible to put together a wing without having to use glue on surface joints that are visible. Using sandable glue is not required in that case. Acromaster construction uses this method.

I understand the need for sandable glues, epoxies and do use them where applicable. In this case, I believe thin CA is just fine.

Steve
many glue joints are on the tops of wings, every cap strip, the sheeting, where it meets the LE and meets the TE, in foam wings there are very long top joints as in built up, then you have the tips, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen glue joints kill off a good finish on planes, and also I have seen the finished buffed through on many many planes at the glue joints on the wings
I NEVER EVER EVER use CA to glue sheeting together, sandable glue is absolutely the best for that
Randy

Bill Little · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2013, 04:53:13 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on March 23, 2013, 01:24:31 PM

Steve
many glue joints are on the tops of wings, every cap strip, the sheeting, where it meets the LE and meets the TE, in foam wings there are very long top joints as in built up, then you have the tips, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen glue joints kill off a good finish on planes, and also I have seen the finished buffed through on many many planes at the glue joints on the wings
I NEVER EVER EVER use CA to glue sheeting together, sandable glue is absolutely the best for that
Randy

Hi Randy,

Aaron and I usd to use Gluit from Pica since it was very sandable. Since this is no longer available, is the "Instrument Maker" glue (guitar glue) about the same?

Thanks!
Bill

RandySmith · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2013, 08:44:27 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on March 23, 2013, 04:53:13 PM

Hi Randy,

Aaron and I usd to use Gluit from Pica since it was very sandable. Since this is no longer available, is the "Instrument Maker" glue (guitar glue) about the same?

Thanks!
Bill

Yes the guitar glues are a good substitute, and close to the same glue, and will replace GlueIt

Randy

Bill Little · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2013, 05:43:15 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on March 23, 2013, 08:44:27 PM

Yes the guitar glues are a good substitute, and close to the same glue, and will replace GlueIt

Randy

Thanks, Randy. I had a bookmark in my old computer (this is your lap top

) for a source. I will contact Ward, he has listed a source for "Instrument Makers" glue before............

Bill

proparc · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2013, 07:01:48 PM »

I'm kinda with Steven on this in that, I like my thin CA. It gives me the rate of building speed I like,(I like to bust them out). Especially when you mix laser cutting with thin CA, man you can really get the party started LOL. My other all time fav is Gorilla glue. Discovered that when working with the Saito 72.

RandySmith · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2013, 07:06:30 PM »

Quote from: proparc on March 24, 2013, 07:01:48 PM

I'm kinda with Steven on this in that, I like my thin CA. It gives me the rate of building speed I like,(I like to bust them out). Especially when you mix laser cutting with thin CA, man you can really get the party started LOL. My other all time fav is Gorilla glue. Discovered that when working with the Saito 72.

Then glue your motor mounts, doublers, top blocks, wing tips, and foam etc with Thin CA,,, my post kinda states there is a place for many types of glue. I would NEVER use only thin CA for everything....but you are more than welcome to

regards
Randy

Allen Eshleman · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2013, 07:23:58 PM »

What glues are sandable? Or which ones sand easier?

proparc · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2013, 08:28:22 PM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on March 24, 2013, 07:23:58 PM

What glues are sandable? Or which ones sand easier?

Someone will chime in on the sandability of glues but,I tend to work in a method that does not make the sandabilty much of a factor. I usually plan my thinking two to three joints ahead while I am actually making a joint so that it's orientation will be taken into consideration as I am working.

A finished plane of mine typically will have in the order of use:
1. Thin CA
2. Medium CA
3. Gorilla Glue
4. Aliphatic Glue

Something not mentioned here is the issue of kit planes as opposed to scratch building and how it effects your adhesives program. Because I CAD and engineer my own plans and scratch build my ships, the level of control over all joints is absolute. That is going to have a significant effect on how you roll with the sticky stuff.

RandySmith · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2013, 10:05:31 PM »

Quote from: Allen Eshleman on March 24, 2013, 07:23:58 PM

What glues are sandable? Or which ones sand easier?

The best sand-able Glues are one like PICA Glueit, Tower Quick sand, and guitar glues, the first two are hard to find now, You cannot sand CA or epoxy on punk wood, or even light wood without getting a ridge , even using hard sanding blocks or any other method, the soft balsa is way way softer than a CA glue joint, and it does not matter how tight the joint is, take top sheeting on a wing, the super tight CA joint will still be many times harder than the immediate sides ajoing it, making it very hard to keep flat when sanding. The sandable aliphatic resins are also very strong and go a very long long way
You may want to try some guitar glue, some of the old cellulose glues also sand easy but are many times weaker than the AR types.

Randy

Author Topic: Preferred Glues fo building Wings (Read 4162 times)

steven yampolsky

steven yampolsky