Chris,
Glue it all back together and then I suggest using 3 oz., or so, fiberglass on the bias (45 degrees) both inside and outside. The outside can be 1 OZ if preferred.
Slop the resin on (after a through clean up), apply the FG and use toilet paper to "mop" up the excess resin BEFORE it starts to set.

I wouldn't bother trying to strengthen it with 1/16" balsa 

Good luck and let us know how it works out, Jerry

Liner,

Ouch!

Tower Hobbies sells the Nobler ARF. I'm not sure if they sell parts? Maybe only the fuselage is available for purchase? Maybe.

Someone may have a fuselage hanging around. Ya never know.

Charles

What is a bias?

Liner,

Ouch!

Tower Hobbies sells the Nobler ARF. I'm not sure if they sell parts? Maybe only the fuselage is available for purchase? Maybe.

Someone may have a fuselage hanging around. Ya never know.

Charles

Im saving the ARF untill I have had my fun with this one.

my guess, you ran out of fuel, or were low enough that it uncovered the pick up, how much fuel are you loading

4oz tank filled to the rim. Sucked out maybe 3oz after. Ran it a week before an it ran fine.

That's when you walk into a restaurant and the hostess sees the color of your skin or hears your accent and puts you right next to the restroom and well away from the kitchen.

Oh, wait, we were talking about fiberglass...

What Gerald meant is that instead of having the fibers run up and down and fore and aft, put the cloth on diagonally so the fibers run crossways (45^o).

If it's a clunk tank it sounds like the clunk fell off and you were sucking air.  It's possible that your glow plug chose that moment to die, or some other Bad Juju happened, but given that the engine was perking along happily until then I really doubt that.

I had one plane that had a smooth fitting on the needle valve.  Unless you used insanely small tubing it would slip off when the plane went inverted.  It did that to me three times at a contest, very reliably running dry about half way through the inverted section of the reverse wingover.  I think it's the only contest that I've attended where I came home with the minimum possible score.

That's a really long way of saying that "some other Bad Juju" might have been a fuel line slipping off or other mundane but avoidable thing.

Has it done outside maneuvers OK before now?

What tank do you have?

Yes it has done outside maneuvers before this. 

It has a 4oz clunk tank (clunk is still "clunking")

Of course it coughed an started back up to run itself harder into the dirt. I had to take it all apart an clean the dirt out. Put it back together an the bent glow plug still bench ran it.

It has a 4oz clunk tank (clunk is still "clunking")

Clunks will still clunk even when they've fallen off the pickup tube.

Can I use automotive fiberglass?

As long as it's not too heavy, and as long as you're using the woven stuff and not matting.  "3oz" refers to the weight of material either in a square foot or a square yard (I can't remember which).  I'm not sure if you can get it that light from automotive suppliers -- you can easily get 1oz and 1/2oz mat from model airplane places.

Ok good to know thanks! How about the resin is that special too or the same as automotive resin?

As long as it's not too heavy, and as long as you're using the woven stuff and not matting.  "3oz" refers to the weight of material either in a square foot or a square yard (I can't remember which).  I'm not sure if you can get it that light from automotive suppliers -- you can easily get 1oz and 1/2oz mat from model airplane places.

weight is by square yard,, Tim is correct, 2 or 3 ouncde is appropriate, though you could even use 3/4 ounce as long as you can fit the balsa shards back together well, it wont take much, and 3/4 ounce cloth with epoxy is far stranger than the surrounding balsa areas,,

Could you give an example of the kind of epoxy to use?

Plain old 30-minute (or longer) glue will work, although it's thicker than is convenient.  "Finish" epoxy will work -- to my knowledge finish epoxy does NOT have the problem with wax that polyester finish resin does*.  If you get the usual Bob Smith Industries finish epoxy you'll see it's got a 20 minute pot life -- this can be extended by mixing it in a flat tray (it warms itself up and cures faster if it's in a deep cup).  If you plan everything out before hand, 20 minutes ought to be plenty of time.

* Polyester resin doesn't fully cure when it's in contact with air, so "finish" resin has wax mixed in that migrates to the surface.  If you put polyester laminating resin on the top surface of a part, the surface in contact with the air is gummy, leading to much clogged sandpaper and use of "that" vocabulary.  My understanding is that it's the humidity in air that inhibits the cure, so in theory you could put a polyester part in a chamber charged with completely dry air and it would cure.  I've never done the experiment, so I don't know if it's true.  Epoxy hardens in air just fine -- which is why I don't think it has the wax.

Hardware stores carry epoxy but it is not what you really want, its lower quality, Hobby shops most all carry epoxy and its better,
the best is from specialties houses , West systems, and others,,

My bad, I was thinking of polyester resin, not epoxy, as Tim has correctly pointed out.

If it's your only resource, yes.  But what Mark said -- hobby shop epoxy is better than hardware store epoxy, and West Systems or similar is even better yet.

This is one of those "don't over think it" things -- if you're going to sit around not flying because you don't have a hobby shop close by, get hardware store epoxy.  I'd say follow that up by ordering some from Tower or Brodak or whatever (if you just get one thing get some 30 minute epoxy -- the 5-minute stuff doesn't bond as well and it's weaker, but it's certainly quick).  Or, if you get out to a hobby shop once in a blue moon, make sure to pick some up.  But use up the hardware-store stuff before you open the hobby shop stuff.

I use epoxy for critical high-strength joints like motor mounts and crash repairs on spars and -- um -- motor mounts (you don't need to use it much, but where you need it, you need it).

I went to Brodaks an they had 5oz or 3/4oz fiberglass so I got 3/4 an I got 30min epoxy.

It is sorta one piece again.

The clunk can still "clunk", yet not actually flex through the needed range of motion as the tubing ages. It depends on the brand/quality of the tubing used.

I used Dubro tubing an put the tank in last summer.

This old Nobler has been repaired in the past. I don't think they did a very good job, considering how crooked the body was. At least it is straighter now. Sure is turning into an ordeal. I have discovered the wing is 1 inch longer on the outboard side, unless that is the way it was supposed to be but I doubt it. Other than that I think the original builder did a nice job building it.

Scratch that the inboard wing is 1 inch longer.

I think that when they're asymmetrical it's usually the inboard wing that's longer -- the idea is to equalize the lift when the inboard wing is moving a tad slower.  (Well, one of the ideas -- there's a lot of theories floating around, and a lot of different ways to skin the cat.)

Ooops scratch that it is the inboard wing that is longer.

Ugh! I hate working with fiberglass and epoxy!

One potential failure mode for a clunk tank is caused by crashing or transporting & storing the model with the nose down. The clunk falls to the front, and sometimes doesn't get loose and return to the rear of the tank, as is required. A near-shutdown so early in the flight makes this seem likely to me.  It sucks, but it's less painful with a 2nd hand plane than with a new one that you just finished.  So, how did you store and transport your Noblur?

Z-poxy "Finishing Epoxy" is ideal for applying fiberglass cloth. It's thin and runny, so it'll flow into the weave, saturate it completely, and also penetrate the balsa enough to make a strong bond. I would cut the FG to fit, apply a coat of resin to the bare wood, put the cloth on, push/roll it into the resin, and then apply as much resin as needed to wet it all out. Later, when you do this, you might want to roll across the FG with a roll of TP, to sop up any excess resin. Not so easy to do with wing/fuselage joints, but something to keep in mind for later. You just peel off the saturated TP and put it in the garbage. It'll harden within 24 hours, and is then safe and legal to dispose of in the garbage.  WEAR Nitril or Latex surgical gloves to avoid getting epoxy into your system.    Steve

One potential failure mode for a clunk tank is caused by crashing or transporting & storing the model with the nose down. The clunk falls to the front, and sometimes doesn't get loose and return to the rear of the tank, as is required. A near-shutdown so early in the flight makes this seem likely to me.  It sucks, but it's less painful with a 2nd hand plane than with a new one that you just finished.  So, how did you store and transport your Noblur?

Z-poxy "Finishing Epoxy" is ideal for applying fiberglass cloth. It's thin and runny, so it'll flow into the weave, saturate it completely, and also penetrate the balsa enough to make a strong bond. I would cut the FG to fit, apply a coat of resin to the bare wood, put the cloth on, push/roll it into the resin, and then apply as much resin as needed to wet it all out. Later, when you do this, you might want to roll across the FG with a roll of TP, to sop up any excess resin. Not so easy to do with wing/fuselage joints, but something to keep in mind for later. You just peel off the saturated TP and put it in the garbage. It'll harden within 24 hours, and is then safe and legal to dispose of in the garbage.  WEAR Nitril or Latex surgical gloves to avoid getting epoxy into your system.    Steve

Nose down all winter an to the field. But even all winter it flew fine a week before. I would imagine the clunk would still be in front of the tank esp with a nose dive crash and it wasn't.

Liner,

Your Nobler rebuild is starting off quite well. 

Will you turn it into a P-40 as I did my rebuilt Ringmaster?

Charles

No I'm more interested in getting it flying again.  I just need to figure out the silk, cloth or whatever it is.

Was it covered with something that looks like cloth, or something that looks like paper?  Do you want to cover it with the same stuff, or just get it back into the air in flyable condition?

If you just want to get it into the air, get some 'coat -- Monocoat, Ultracoat, Towercoat, Bob's Really Good Hobby Shop Coat, whatever.  Just make sure it's reasonably fuel proof (in these days of electrics there's an ever-increasing number of brands that aren't).  Slap it on (you can do really good work with 'coat if you try, so don't think it has to be a wrinkled-up horror). 

If it looks like cloth it's silk.  You can either get model silk, which costs $omigawd/yard and is hard to find, or you can silk from Dharma Trading (it's on the web, I'd have to search for it by name, so you can, too).  You want the 8MM stuff (MM is not millimeters -- it's some market-specific measure).  5MM is lighter, but folks who've used it report that it takes more dope to fill.  Figure on $5 or so for enough to do the plane, plus shipping.

If it looks like paper it's silkspan.  I don't know where to get silkspan these days, so you'll have to ask.  I hear people say they found some, I hear people complain they can't find it.  I dunno -- I have a stash of it, and I have some Polyspan (the plastic equivalent), so I'm OK for now.  You might try EasyBuilt models, and Sig, or ask on the finishing forum.

For either silk or silkspan you have to know how to cover the model.  Basically you get the model prepped, the final prep being two or three coats of clean on the wood, then you apply damp silk/silkspan to the framework and stick it down with dope.  It'll dry fairly taught, at which point you paint it with dope (some use taughtening dope for the first coat or two, some don't) until it's sealed, then finish the finish.  It's a long involved process to do it right, and I wouldn't recommend it for someone who still needs lots of air time.

(You can do a quickie job with silkspan that rivals the speed of a 'coat job -- but probably won't look as good, and it smells up the house more.  Your choice.)

It has a brittle covering that the bottom looks like on lines in like this fiberglass I'm using to to fix the nose. I patched the wing a couple time with whatever came in old kits like a tissue paper, but sometimes it comes out tight an sometimes loose. Also the finish I get looks noting like how they did it. If I try to slap monokote on it it won't stick to what they had on it,  just melts the paint an bubbles up.

NTSB checking in   :  Sorry to see your Nobler go in.  Somewhat rare that we get to see the event happen on video.  Lots of good comments about the cause for the engine s/d.  I had a Twister that would not run out the full tank.  Clunk tank in service.  I think I had only flown it a couple of time and then hung it on the wall for the winter. Come spring it would run out about 1/3 or less of the tank then shutdown.  "What the heck?" thinks me.  Came to find out the clunk line was holed out inside the tank, and once the fuel level dropped and exposed the hole in the clunk tubing air would enter and the engine would quit.  Changed the internal fuel line to the clunk and problem solved.  I like Steve's "stuck clunk" idea to  

Post engine shutdown routine:  This is by no means me being critical or petty, but there may be a possible lesson to be learned based on your crash.  I notice that as the engine quits that the plane is head more or less directly toward the camera.  The pilot is moving at what appears to be 90 degree's to the airplanes direction of travel, toward the right side of the circle.  You gained line tension just before impact, maybe 2 ft or 3ft or so above the ground.  Do you think had you moved away from the camera (toward the back side of the circle, if you consider the camera location to be the front of the circle) that you might have gained tension sooner/quicker and maybe pulled it out?  I guess we could also ask, is moving directly opposite the direction of aircraft travel the best way to regain line tension or are there other things to consider?  I've seen instances where there is an almighty jerk as the lines go tight, and sometimes the outcome is good, sometimes not so good.   I know that in the heat of the moment that gut feel more or less takes over and we do what we feel is right.  But when you can, sad to say, re-live the event you can look with a more critical eye and maybe gain something from having done so.  No ill will intended at all here, just curious.  I notice also that the engine seemed to come back to life once it was on the downward path just as the lines go tight.  Sort of sounded that way I think. 

I hope your repair comes off with good results.

If by the "looks like on lines in like this fiberglass" you mean that you can see a weave, it's silk.  If it's silk, it's almost certainly silk and dope.  I'm pretty sure you can stick 'coat to dope if you don't have the iron set too hot, but I've never tried it.

There are specific tricks to getting silk, silkspan or tissue to work well -- Google around for directions, or ask on the "paint and finishing" forum.  Getting that really nice finish is time-consuming, which is why I was suggesting 'coat.

Yes the weave. I suppose fiberglass an epoxy can start adding some weight huh?  I put 2 layers on the front fuse and behind the wing on the fuse.

NTSB checking in  :  Sorry to see your Nobler go in.  Somewhat rare that we get to see the event happen on video.  Lots of good comments about the cause for the engine s/d.  I had a Twister that would not run out the full tank.  Clunk tank in service.  I think I had only flown it a couple of time and then hung it on the wall for the winter. Come spring it would run out about 1/3 or less of the tank then shutdown.  "What the heck?" thinks me.  Came to find out the clunk line was holed out inside the tank, and once the fuel level dropped and exposed the hole in the clunk tubing air would enter and the engine would quit.  Changed the internal fuel line to the clunk and problem solved.  I like Steve's "stuck clunk" idea to 

Post engine shutdown routine:  This is by no means me being critical or petty, but there may be a possible lesson to be learned based on your crash.  I notice that as the engine quits that the plane is head more or less directly toward the camera.  The pilot is moving at what appears to be 90 degree's to the airplanes direction of travel, toward the right side of the circle.  You gained line tension just before impact, maybe 2 ft or 3ft or so above the ground.  Do you think had you moved away from the camera (toward the back side of the circle, if you consider the camera location to be the front of the circle) that you might have gained tension sooner/quicker and maybe pulled it out?  I guess we could also ask, is moving directly opposite the direction of aircraft travel the best way to regain line tension or are there other things to consider?  I've seen instances where there is an almighty jerk as the lines go tight, and sometimes the outcome is good, sometimes not so good.   I know that in the heat of the moment that gut feel more or less takes over and we do what we feel is right.  But when you can, sad to say, re-live the event you can look with a more critical eye and maybe gain something from having done so.  No ill will intended at all here, just curious.  I notice also that the engine seemed to come back to life once it was on the downward path just as the lines go tight.  Sort of sounded that way I think. 

I hope your repair comes off with good results.

I suppose it could of helped, not much time to think about it.  The time waisted thinking about the last ditch effort could of helped too. The engine coming back on sure didn't help the situation either.

The engine coming back to life when pointed down is one reason I suggested the stuck clunk theory. Well, that and because Dirty Dan said it happened to him with one or more of his .20FP proviles (sic).

When that "oh, chit" moment happened to me last, I turned around and ran away from the airplane, while holding "full up". Saved it, I did, but the engine didn't come back online for me. I don't recall if it quit in the Clover or OH8, but to save it in either of those two indicates that it was a good plan. This happened at PC in Clovis, during practice for GSSC, just after PTG speared in a Diva, and just before Mike Haverly speared in his JD Falcon. Probably was some sort of bad mojo moving through, huh, Tim?  Steve

I'll go through the tank wile it's half hanging out