I building what amounts to my first full size stunter.

   As a kid I played with the cox stuff and Carl Goldberg Planes. Mainly a Lil' Jumpin Bean a Swordsman 18 and a Lil' satan.

  Lately I've been flying a lot of Brodak arfs and a couple others. I always wanted to build one from the ground up but always had other projects etc..... So this is my shot at building a Sig Banshee.

   Now having had a personal resurgence in this part of the hobby I've been reading Stunt Hanger, Stuka Stunt and Brotherhood Of The Ring websites trying to acquaint myself as to the proper way to try and do things. Although I may not do it that way Lol!

 So I thought I would ask that you point out my mistakes and give me viable suggestions on the way to proceed through this bash! I know that will be hard to do but give it a try anyway  

As far as the power plant is concerned I'm starting out with the Fox 35 just to expirence the whole fox love that the world has to offer then probably removing it after I do that. Im going to run some engines I have just to get the expirence of doing so and to see what I like or don't like. This is all in good fun of course as I think I know what I'd really like but can't buy them anymore. PA. I have some Brodak 40's (3) of which run awesome right out of the box after break in of course. Frankly when I see people say they have a hard time with them I can't understand why I think there awesome.  (thats in my Inexperienced world of course)

 I have a couple EVO .36's and a 60.  Some electric stuff E-flight 25 and 32 etc....

After I finish the B-bash I bought an Cardinal 92 off ebay and I also have a couple Brodak kits. But before I build those I wanted something to make mistakes on so I didn't ruin those kits.

I have thought about it in the ways of Vintage vs Modern and have come up with what I think will be a cool Hybrid and have progressed quite a way through the build already but figure If I did something really dumb I could still fix it before painting it. Kinda where you guys come in.

 I built the stab ,elevators, vertical fin and Rudder first in there normal fashion. Then I laminated the fuse doublers and prepared the cutout for a Fox .35. I also have read where moving the wing up 1" is a good idea to for heavier engines so i did that too. I also cut about 3/8" off the nose to use a 2" spinner instead of a 1 3/4"

To use the other engines I have I'll have to increase the length of the cutout for the other motors by about 1" to accommodate the longer engines. My fuse was warped so I thinned it carefully to remove the warp and it looks pretty good now.

The wing now is a whole different story and where I look for advice if need be.

The wing I rebuilt as a D-tube style wing with caps strips shear webbing and an adjustable lead out from an old airplane modified of course.

So I started by making a rib template that had been cut for sheeting all the way around the rib as the original only had it in the center section and made a whole new set of ribs.

I built the wing on my table which very flat and I have a piece of 1/2" glass thats 2'x4' I tack glued the main spar to the glass in several places with zap so I could pop it off later.

I added shear webbing and an extra light ply rib in the center to transfer loads to the fuse, Lightened somewhat of course. I used a bell crank from a crashed Vector I think or maybe my Hanger9 PT-19 and made new lead outs and modified the adj lead out to more match the spacing on the plans. I also built up the tips to accommodate the adj. L.O. and to make them just a little beefier and also give something for the covering to adhere to. I also replace all the pushrods with 4-40 ball links and carbon rods. Right now the wing with flaps is 206.8 grams. Thats no hinges or pushrod to flaps from BC. 7.2 oz's?

So I guess my comments/questions are;

A: Did I do myself any favors or did I just make the plane heavy? I see some kits with these additions but maybe there bigger and can handle the weight better.

B: I'd like to try silk and dope as I have 5 yards of K&S silk and have never done it before and would like to try it "The Old Fashioned Way". I also have some Polyspan coming and a couple packages of medium silkspan from brodak. And some old yellow dingy stuff that came with the kit. I also bought some Nitrate Dope from Brodak as I understand this is how you start having read the Instructions posted in the finish section.

C: Is silk a bad way to do it as I see many doing it anyway but silk?

D: Is Butyrate dope a necessary evil in that it keeps shrinking or should at least the last one or two coats should be Buty?

I plan to paint the airplane with auto paints, primers, clears etc.. PPG.

Here are some pictures if I can get them to load after writing all this.....

Bash!

 

Got It!
Lol

tim

A; Pulverize,, Descriptive but I like it! But point taken.

LOL!

B; Well I do have other planes to fly. Probably actually better flying also but yes I guess I'm screwing around a Little . Plus its 16 Degrees here in Winamac IN. and I'm having fun learning about something new to me. Also I hate plastic covering as it usually lifts some where at an inopportune time. Like when your half way through the day and want to fly more. I wanted a totally painted airframe which would theoretically be sealed from all the oil.

C: Yeah I got a pack of 5 one yard sections off of e-bay. was pricey. But fun costs money$$

D; Hoping it will last a little while but your probably right though.

So to the finishing guru's:

I'd like to use the carbon veil on the wood parts. Fuse, stab,fin, flaps....

E; Would it be typical practice to do the wing in silk and the other areas in carbon veil? in this particular instance?

And typically would you put silk on the fuse etc... if not using carbon or maybe use silkspan on the wood parts to save money? I'm looking for a hard to dent easy to repair/paint surface. Hope that makes sense.


(ie a totally sheeted plane you would cover the whole plane with carbon veil.)

Also what weight veil? 2/10ths 3/10ths?

I'm sure this seems like overkill but I want to gain experience with these materials while still having a nice Banshee.

I'm the type of guy who gets as much from building the plane as I do flying it. I'm 48 yrs old so I'll never be as good as some but better than others so this is just as enjoyable to me.

 I feel this is the last bastian of hope for real modelers as I have seen impeccable workmanship on these pages and feel the art of designing, building and finishing has gone by the wayside. My hat is off to all of you and I look forward to meeting you somewhere someday.

Thanks for your time and suggestions.

Tim

Most serious stunt competitors don't use right rudder, or they use just a touch.  I generally try for somewhere between slightly to the right and exactly straight.  Ditto, for that matter, on the motor thrust line.

You do want to put in adjustable leadouts (and whack the clearance holes in the wing bigger).  There are lots of different ways to skin this cat - choose one and run with it, because getting the leadout position dialed in makes a huge difference.

Oh, I forgot to mention -- that Fox 35 is probably going to be too wimpy for the way you're building the plane.  But, if it's light enough, maybe not.  Modern engines are way better.

Well, I just had to go see where this Winamac IN was according to Yahoo maps.   Looks like you are in the heart of a great bunch of modelers if you want to drive.  I would think there would be a couple close to you.  Now the Fox .35 Stunt needs to be well broken in, other wise you will get vibrations.  What you have done so far looks great in order to have a straight and reliable flying plane.   Any way do the searches on here and keep us posted.

So Motors that have been massaged like the L&J that I have here,  Are they more powerful, less powerful or the same as they were stock but much better as far as 4-2-4 coming on and off the power etc? Better balancing etc... I've read about the fox burp, is that cured also by these gentlemen or not so much?

Tim

I wouldn't have maintained the lead out spacing as shown on the kit. Narrow spacing is more desirable, as the 'hang point' doesn't change as much when the load is shifted from one line to the other. If it's not too late, run your lead outs through the guide on your adjustable lead out slider, and remove the adapter you made.

Consider this engine option for the Banshee.  Keep your eyes open for a good used DoubleStar40.  They are a copy of the Fox35, but with modern CNC machining and metallurgy, and weight the same as the Fox35.  Tom Dixon imports (Ukraine) them, kind of pricey for a new one (not sure if he has any right now) but I recently scored a good but used one for $100.  You can read more about them on Tom's site.  I recently bought a Banshee kit for mine.

Thanks Guys I really speciate your input. I do have a Brodak 40 and was thinking of using it too. I like the idea of shortening the flaps is that a universally accepted idea? I like the way it caps the flap at the tips.

The Double star 40, Is it produced by the same company as the B-40? they look as though they could be.

The weather here has been insane over the last couple days and I have to say Ive been surfing Stunt Hanger more that sanding LOL!

 The fuse has a warp in it right behind the doublers and I have 5 reams of paper sitting on it trying to bend it the other way. It has straightened out some but do you think it will just flex back in time. It was a pretty hard bend right after the doublers. I was thinking of holding it above a pressure cooker nozzle and trying to steam it so it would take a better hold what do you think?

Tim

Hi Tim
Great build so far on the banshee! Looks super!
My suggestion would be if you have a Brodak 40, use it. It's very user-friendly and has more power than either the Fox 35 or the double star 40. Needs quite a bit break in time, though.
On the flaps, only the outboard flap needs to be shortened. Usually 2-3 inches.

Thanks Guys I really speciate your input. I do have a Brodak 40 and was thinking of using it too. I like the idea of shortening the flaps is that a universally accepted idea? I like the way it caps the flap at the tips.

The Double star 40, Is it produced by the same company as the B-40? they look as though they could be.

The weather here has been insane over the last couple days and I have to say Ive been surfing Stunt Hanger more that sanding LOL!

 The fuse has a warp in it right behind the doublers and I have 5 reams of paper sitting on it trying to bend it the other way. It has straightened out some but do you think it will just flex back in time. It was a pretty hard bend right after the doublers. I was thinking of holding it above a pressure cooker nozzle and trying to steam it so it would take a better hold what do you think?

Tim

DoubleStar 40 is made by one of the former Russian Aerospace places, not sure if it's same one that makes Brodak's.  The DS40's were initially shipped with too small of a venturi, and when refitted with the right one the power is on par with most other 40's.  Check with Tom Dixon for further details and help with the set-up..  Note: there are 2 different DS40's.  I am talking about the first one which was a bushing engine and was a drop in replacement for the Fox35 at the same weight as the Fox.  He now has a newer version which is ball bearing, weighs around 8oz with power of a Tigre46.

My understanding is that it is.

Since no one mentioned it, I will: Last I checked, DS40 was double the price of a B40. it doesn't have twice amount of power or twice as good stunt qualities. Just sayin' 

I use silk n dope exclusively.

Buy the silk (5 mm) and dye from Dharma off the net.


http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/silk-habotai-5mm.html?lnav=fabric_silk.html

Get gallons of Randolph dope and thinner from an airport store.

When done in bulk this is both better and less expensive than other covering.  Hobby shop pricing of silk and dope is prohibitive.

So I agree the B40 is the best bang for the buck.  I had one in a NoblerARF for over 100 flights.  It had a great stunt run.  I used a RSM 10-6 and on a calm day I could run it on the rich side and fly the pattern at 5.5sec laps.   

Try a low pitch prop and you will be in for a BIG surprise. Best prop for a B40 is definitely the Thunder Tiger 11x4.5. The next best thing is APC 10.5x4.5.

I was wrong (again) about the RSM 10-6 prop, that was another set-up I was thinking about. 
My Nobler/B40 had a ZingerPro 11-5 trimmed down to 10.75.

Allen, thanks for your input, you and Randy Powell have inspired me to build a Ringmaster Deluxe after the Banshee. Yours as well as Randy's is a beautiful build and I'm wondering what your opinion of its flying qualities are? I've seen the original ringmaster my whole life and just don't care for it although I know its a classic. The RMD is just an awesome substitution IMHO.
Tim

The RMD is a fully competitive pattern design, as good as any profile out there.  In a difference class from the original S-1, its much larger (~620sq.in.), has flaps, and uses engines in the .40-.46 range (with or w/o pipe).  Been flying mine for 3 years now in the Profile event. Really like it, its been a fun plane for me.  Mine weights 48oz and it works well with an AeroTiger36 on 63ft lines.  Get plans & laser rib set from Pat Johnston.

Looks like you're doing fine with your Banshee and getting lots of sound answers and advice. Attached, a picture of me with my scratch built and much modified Banshee based on the SIG plans. My ribs were done like yours to allow for 1/16TH leading edge balsa sheeting back to the spars and for the open bay ribs to have cap strips. Fuselage is one inch shorter than a stock Banshee. Flaps have greater root chord and taper and stab/elevator are thicker at 3/8Th's and larger than stock. I added Adjustable lead outs, tip & weight features. Placed the pushrod exit on the inboard side to avoid engine exhaust. Added a nice piece of 3/8TH balsa on the inboard side from the added nose ring back  to near the wing's high point and sanded it all into a nice smooth blend. The nose was glassed with SIG Light Weight fiberglass back to the high point. Power will be an old Fox.36 I put in a stock kit built SIG Twister when I was a kid, bought and built back in the later '70's, when SIG had those cool Full Page, all Control Line, advertisements in FLYING MODELS where you could get a SIG C/L kit and engine combo deal. Lew Woolard has since reworked the Fox.36. My Banshee has now been covered in silkspan and is awaiting color doping. Have lots of fun and enjoy your Banshee. Paul

That looks beautiful Paul! I've been kinda busy through the holidays and have mine weighted down to try and bend?? Warp?? whatever the fuse back into shape. I really don't want to make a new one. I'll probably just make sure the wings stab and rudder line up as best I can and just get er done! I like the 3/8 you added to the fuse side. I was going to do that also. I also was going to use a 2" spinner and a spinner ring. I like the way that looks. Never really noticed that until I had a Cardinal and since I have noticed it a lot more. Don't know if that's something guys have always done or a more recent addition/idea. Looks like you made a new stab out of 1/4"? I was gonna use 3/16 so it would be easier to hinge with some Dubro pinned hinges.

Another question I have is a lot of times I see where the elevator is thinner then the stab. Is that for some aerodynamic reason or just to save weight or some other reason. Probably a dumb question but....

Tim

I now have two Banshees.  My first built box stock with Sig Coverall and dope, has a Double Star 40 and required almost 2 OZ of lead in the tail. It still came out at 40 oz and flies pretty well.  My second has the nose cut down 2 inches, uses an EVO-40 for power, and was finished with rustoleum and ultracoat and it flies even better.  Yours looks great.  What kind of finish are you planning?