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Author Topic: monokote  (Read 2617 times)

Offline mark eisenhut

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monokote
« on: December 07, 2006, 09:15:39 AM »
hi , i just spent an hour getting wrinkles out of all my planes to get ready to fly all day today. ? is why do i have all these wrinkles ? is it the wheather getting cooler and dryer? i live in phoenix all my planes looked good the last time i flew 2 weeks ago. today they looked like the arfs right out of the box not tight at all .anybody know why this happens or how to stop it?
thank you
mark eisenhut
mark eisenhut

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: monokote
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006, 03:08:07 PM »
Mark,

Wish I could help with a permanent fix for your covering problems.  :(

The only thing I might suggest, is keeping your models in the shade at all times. That Arizona sun gets hotter than a Monokote iron!  f~

Know it doesn't help much, but  moving to the NW eliminates the problem!  **)

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline mark eisenhut

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Re: monokote
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2006, 08:08:06 PM »
i guess i can live with this problem when you consider that it was a nice 72* wind calm and about 15 flights and no broken planes  nice day. beats shoveling snow.
thanks
mark
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Offline Bill Adair

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Re: monokote
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2006, 08:16:00 PM »
;D

Figured the move suggestion was a bit extreme.  **)

I loved winters in the SW, but the summers get me every time!  ;D

May consider snow birding, but not until the grandkids are a little older.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: monokote
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2006, 09:02:46 PM »
I'm far from being a Monokote "Pro", but two tips are said to work very well in reducing your problem.

First, don't apply Monokote to bare wood. Seal the wood with a couple of coats of clear dope first; Nitrate is fine. Sand well (down to 400-grit) and then vacuum, tack rag, vacuum again.

Second, don't think of Monokote as a "heat and shring covering. Rather, adopt the "heat and stretch" technique. The tighter you get the Monokote before heat-shrinking, the less "creep" you will have.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 09:24:53 PM by Ralph Wenzel »
(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
AMA 495785 League City, TX

Offline mark eisenhut

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Re: monokote
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 09:29:16 PM »
thanks Ralph, i didn't do either of those things.
ask and learn. ill get it right next time.
thanks again
mark eisenhut
mark eisenhut

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: monokote
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 10:47:43 PM »
Hi Mark,

I know I run the risk of being tared and feathered for saying this on this "painters" forum, but: "I love Monokote" ;-) I am far from being an expert, but after using it for the past 37 years, I have learned a few things about how it behaves. Or in this case: how it misbehaves!

Most people still think that it is the Monokote that is moving around, stretching, and contracting and causing the wrinkles we all hate. It does move a little, but the real problem is with our wood! It absorbs enough moisture to enlarge just enough to cause our problems when it contracts again.

We usually build inside where the wood is relatively full of moisture and the whole plane is just a little bit larger than it will be when we take it out into the sun where it will dry the wood making the whole plane shrink just a little bit. This leaves the Monokote loose, with those ugly wrinkles.

The solution is to get your plane out in the sun on a warm, perferably dry, day. Leave it there until it wrinkles. Then use your heat gun, and/or iron with a sock, to shrink the Monokote to conform to your now "slightly smaller" plane. I'm so fanatical about it that I run an extension outside so I can shrink it in the sun!

I do this with ALL my planes. RC and CL. Sometimes it takes doing it a few times, but then it is wrinkle free FOREVER! I have an Olympic II sailplane that is now 30 years old, and the MonoKote is still tight as a drum, even in the sun. I also have a 30+ year old "TF Combat Streak" that flys as both an RC plane and a CL plane that is also wrinkle free.

Now you can begin to see why our ARFs come with some wrinkles. My guess is that they leave the factory in "humid" China, (across a wet ocean,) with PERFECT Monokote jobs. You can imagine how good those people are after covering their "1,000 th" plane! ;-)

Of course, it goes without saying, that all the other suggestions you hear are helpful. Good wood prep, smooth, and dust free, will help. Also, when you use the heat gun, it really helps to use the Monokote mitten to press down on the film, while it is hot, to ensure it sticks to the wood.

I hope this helps with your problem. Please let us know how it all comes out.
Rudy
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Offline mark eisenhut

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Re: monokote
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 05:37:08 AM »
hi Rudy
 i kinda thought it was the wood shrinking do to how dry it is here in Arizona now. in July and August and september it was the monsoon season. and now the humidity is like 8% so there was a huge change in the amount of moister in the air.wish all of you could be here. we went flying yesterday  70* no wind perfect day no crashes and i even did a few outside loops firsts ones in about 30 years. now for me that was a huge rush. i want to wish ever one and there family's a very happy and safe Holiday season.
mark
mark eisenhut

Offline Garf

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Re: monokote
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 10:10:44 AM »
My question about Monokote is the difference in handling characteristics  between colors. Some colors are easier to apply and seem to come out better. Also, some wingtips give me fits. I have had to cover some tips in several pieces.

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: monokote
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 11:53:25 PM »
Hi Mark,

Sounds like your recent WX conditions were perfect for causing your wrinkles. I hope you get a chance to use the gun on them in the sun.

Congratulations on your successful "outside" loops. It's nice to hear that all the right neurons are still well trained after a few decades! :-) .... I had the same joyful experience this year after a 30+ year absence from CL flying. If a judge was my best friend, owed me money, squinted real hard, and was in a very charitable, holiday spirit kind of mood, he might say he recognized some of the maneuvers in my stunt pattern? ;-)

I don't want to rub it in to my friends in less friendly climates but, like you, I flew the other day with temps at 74, no wind, and clear blue skies here at the beach. There is a small park (a 1 min walk from my home) where I fly my Electric CL P-40 ARF.  It sure beats the 50 min. drive to the club flying field. 

The only problem with our WX is that we are robbed of a "building season"! There are too many distractions out here!!! ;-)

Have fun with your outsides. Squares next? :-)


hi Rudy
 i kinda thought it was the wood shrinking do to how dry it is here in Arizona now. in July and August and september it was the monsoon season. and now the humidity is like 8% so there was a huge change in the amount of moister in the air.wish all of you could be here. we went flying yesterday  70* no wind perfect day no crashes and i even did a few outside loops firsts ones in about 30 years. now for me that was a huge rush. i want to wish ever one and there family's a very happy and safe Holiday season.
mark
Rudy
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Offline bob branch

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Re: monokote
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2006, 06:47:53 PM »
Even better than dope on the airframe is a material at the hobby shop call Stixit. I was stunned how much stronger the retention of the adhesive was with this stuff over anything else I have tested. It is brushed on and then needs to be sanded down to get a smooth finish. I Brushed on one coat on a test strip and sanded one side to 400 grit and the other unsanded 400 surface with a coat brushed on. The final finish at 400 grit was equivalent to being stuck down to 400 grit sanded balsa. The unsanded brushed on surface was like about 180 grit sanded balsa and monocoted surface. Adhesion strength difference though on the 400 grit sanded and non sanded was almost identical. Good stuff and it works with Ultracote as well even though it is not mentioned on the label.

bob branch

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: monokote
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006, 09:06:03 PM »
Bob and all the others into this one...

TF MonoKote(r) is a good material. All the points made so far have merit, too.

For a while, I flew RC (beg pardon) gliders, down here in the southern edge of Arizona. Almost all were covered with $Kote. Yes, at 5,000' above sea level, the temperatures are a bit more moderate than at Tucson, or heavens forfend, Phoenix - but we get more UV...

Seems that, unless they have changed the product, $Kote will reach a final-shrink tautness after several passes of reshrinking after the initial application.

And Stixit is SIG's version of BalsaRite, correct, Bob? Either one, instead of a few coats of dope - in my experience, anyway - makes a very nice, manageable sub-surface to iron $Kote onto. I, personally, don't trust dope, nitrate OR butyrate, in higher heat situations. Stixit/BalsaRite are designed for them, however. They also make a very nice interface for partially oil-soaked wood to a $Kote covering, for repairs...
\BEST\LOU

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: monokote
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2007, 09:11:17 AM »
All polyester plastics will reach a point where they will shrink no further. Knowing that use the minimum amount of heat necessary to shrink the material because when you need to reshrink it, it takes a higher heat to get the effect. So you have only a few shots to achieve total taughtness or forever live with the wrinkles. Better to pull the stuff as tight as possible when putting it on. For wing tips I usually use the gun. Heat the stuff as your getting ready to drop it over the tip. You'll find that even the most difficult tip will cover easily.
 There are only 2 downsides to Monokote, one is the relatively high temp needed yo attach the stuff and the other is the shelf life of the product. Believe me you do not want to use old Kote it's really not pleasent to work with and in that instance you will need some help keeping it attached and streched.
Sunlight has the same effect as on a painted surface it fades and with the UV exposure it becomes brittle. You have to keep it moisturized and like all finishes it's better to keep it covered till ready to fly.
Having painted or plastisized I prefer to use film as I'm sick of the smell of paint and it's incredably expensive. Whoever named plastic covering $cote hasn't painted a plane in awhile.
Dennis

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: monokote
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2007, 05:53:02 PM »
How do solid and transparent Monokote compare?  Is there any difference in durability?  I like the looks of the transparent, and you can see any damage inside the wing - I'm relearning flying and it is nice to see when you have broken something important. It sure shows all of my building deficiencies, though.
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: monokote
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2007, 06:01:53 PM »
FWIW In my experience, the transparant seems to be a bit less flexible. perhaps brittle would be a more translatable term? not that it is brittle, just in comparison to the colored opaque covering it seems less pliable, thats the word!
Its kinda cool though, and if you paint the fuselage, use candy colors over pearl, nice effect to match the transparant color.
sorry but I have all the cool stuff to paint with at my fingertips.......
another note, seems like the pearl colors tend to move the pigment/adhesive more readily which shows through when you really work a wingtip to conform. IE distort the pearl pattern
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline bob branch

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Re: monokote
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2007, 08:40:53 PM »
The issue is the wood shrinking as it dries and looses moisture. Moral of the story is cover em in low humidity time of year and you will get less of it. The shrinking part is an issue of how much heat is applied but not in times or number of applications of heat, but in the highest temperature that is applied. Each material has a temp that the adhesive activates at and a different temp it begins to shrink at. When you go to shrinking temps there is a temp of maximum shrink. Once you hit it you will never get any more shrink. When you apply any of the films this is why as mentioned previously you should strentch it as you put it down. Some materials have a wider range between adhesive activation and maximum shrink. Ultracote has the highest range and the adhesive activates at only 210 degrees. When shrinking the materials an iron has the advantage over a gun of knowing exactly what temp you are shrinking at. I always try to shrink at the lowest temp that will get the job done. That way if I need more later I have shrink left at a higher temp.
Note taking can obviously be a help. If you get an arf made in humid Vietnam and winter comes with its low humidities over here you will see more wrinkles. Lower quality coverings also seem to have less shrinkability. One of the problems with arf cover jobs I have found is there is probably a pretty high priority on the planes coming out of the box with as few wrinkles as possible. Some of the planes I have seen have been exposed to very high temps and have very little shrink left at all in the covering. That's why a job you do yourself will usually be better,especially if you cover during low humidity time of year and watch your temps.

bob


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