Author Topic: Making Control Horns (Read 3439 times)

Dennis Saydak · « **on:** March 15, 2020, 04:15:30 PM »

Has anyone used JB weld to attach the horn to the wire? I know the proper way is to braze it with real silver solder. but that isn't the answer I'm looking for. I just want to save myself some work experimenting if someone has done this with success.

I made up two elevator horns for my Jr. Nobler. The upper horn was soldered with Staybrite silver solder (supposedly 7 times stronger than ordinary solder). In spite of a "perfect" solder joint it failed in the twist test. I thought it might have been ok for a .15 size model but clearly it would be an accident waiting to happen.

Brent Williams · « **Reply #1 on:** March 15, 2020, 04:41:31 PM »

I sure wouldn't use JB Weld for that purpose.

I wouldn't use StayBrite now, either. I have seen several planes have failures due to that solder. Either the flap horn fails or the elevator horn or both. This is on good planes that have made it to the top 10 at the Nats. A StayBrite soldered flap horn in a hand me down plane failed while I was flying. It was a bizarre feeling. Luckily, I was able to land the plane.

A good silver braze is much stronger. https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/welding-and-soldering-tools/soldering-accessories/24646

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/cadmium-free-silver-brazing-material-question/msg515095/#msg515095

Brett Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** March 15, 2020, 04:47:49 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Saydak on March 15, 2020, 04:15:30 PM

Has anyone used JB weld to attach the horn to the wire? I know the proper way is to braze it with real silver solder. but that isn't the answer I'm looking for. I just want to save myself some work experimenting if someone has done this with success.

I made up two elevator horns for my Jr. Nobler. The upper horn was soldered with Staybrite silver solder (supposedly 7 times stronger than ordinary solder). In spite of a "perfect" solder joint it failed in the twist test. I thought it might have been ok for a .15 size model but clearly it would be an accident waiting to happen.

Stabrite IS NOT "silver solder", and neither is anything else you can melt with a soldering iron. As you found, like many others, it isn't acceptable for this application, at least not without some other arrangment to reduce the load on the solder. It's also not "7 times stronger" than regular 60/40 or 63/37 electronics solder. I might buy 10-15%.

Real silver solder/silver braze is more like 40-60% silver or more and *is* probably 7x as strong or more. It requires a torch of some sort to melt. I use this:

https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-AM53500-Cookson-Elect-Silver/dp/B000G36BJK

This is 56% silver (instead of the 4% stabrite and similar Kester product) and also happens to come in a *perfect* diameter to do a control horn. To use it, grind the upright (mild steel) and sand the crossbar (A2 Air-hardening drill rod) to clean it. Jig it into position in a vise, with the crossbar sticking up. Then make a small ring of brazing rod that just goes around the crossbar once. Put the flux right around the interface, top and bottom, then put the solder ring over the crossbar, and push it down to the upright. Hit with a MAPP gas torch for about 15 seconds, everthing will get red, and at some point you will see the solder melt and flow like water into the joint. Remove the heat, walk away for 15 minutes, done. If you only have a propane torch, that will work, but take much longer. Take it out of the vise, chip off the flux, clean with lacquer thinner, and you will see a perfect smooth, slightly yellow, fillet on each side.

Bend the ends, stick it in the oven at 500 degrees for an hour or so, turn off oven, let it cool. Done.

Brett

Brent Williams · « **Reply #3 on:** March 15, 2020, 08:15:51 PM »

Since das Stuka Stunt is kaput, I made a quick animation showing Derek Moran's method for using silver braze "forms" and for fixture based bending of flap/elevator horns from A2 air hardened drill rod.

Chris Fretz · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2020, 08:18:46 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on March 15, 2020, 04:47:49 PM

Stabrite IS NOT "silver solder", and neither is anything else you can melt with a soldering iron. As you found, like many others, it isn't acceptable for this application, at least not without some other arrangment to reduce the load on the solder. It's also not "7 times stronger" than regular 60/40 or 63/37 electronics solder. I might buy 10-15%.

Real silver solder/silver braze is more like 40-60% silver or more and *is* probably 7x as strong or more. It requires a torch of some sort to melt. I use this:

https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-AM53500-Cookson-Elect-Silver/dp/B000G36BJK

This is 56% silver (instead of the 4% stabrite and similar Kester product) and also happens to come in a *perfect* diameter to do a control horn. To use it, grind the upright (mild steel) and sand the crossbar (A2 Air-hardening drill rod) to clean it. Jig it into position in a vise, with the crossbar sticking up. Then make a small ring of brazing rod that just goes around the crossbar once. Put the flux right around the interface, top and bottom, then put the solder ring over the crossbar, and push it down to the upright. Hit with a MAPP gas torch for about 15 seconds, everthing will get red, and at some point you will see the solder melt and flow like water into the joint. Remove the heat, walk away for 15 minutes, done. If you only have a propane torch, that will work, but take much longer. Take it out of the vise, chip off the flux, clean with lacquer thinner, and you will see a perfect smooth, slightly yellow, fillet on each side.

Bend the ends, stick it in the oven at 500 degrees for an hour or so, turn off oven, let it cool. Done.

Brett

What do you put it in the oven for?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2020, 09:43:43 PM »

Quote from: Chris Fretz on March 15, 2020, 08:18:46 PM

What do you put it in the oven for?

A rudimentary tempering after you get the middle of it red hot, and the rest of it stays cool. It might not do much of anything, but that's how I did mine and it was pretty much unbreakable.

Brett

Howard Rush · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2020, 06:57:19 PM »

Looks like MAPP got replaced by new stuff. Is the new stuff equivalent? Can it be used with an old torch meant for propane? I’m about to use Derek’s method to make me some control horns.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2020, 07:45:49 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Saydak on March 15, 2020, 04:15:30 PM

Has anyone used JB weld to attach the horn to the wire? I know the proper way is to braze it with real silver solder. but that isn't the answer I'm looking for. I just want to save myself some work experimenting if someone has done this with success.

I made up two elevator horns for my Jr. Nobler. The upper horn was soldered with Staybrite silver solder (supposedly 7 times stronger than ordinary solder). In spite of a "perfect" solder joint it failed in the twist test. I thought it might have been ok for a .15 size model but clearly it would be an accident waiting to happen.

Hi Dennis;
Do you still have the failed horn or a better photo? I have to ask, how you considered it "perfect?" How much experience do you have at soldering and brazing? From what I can see in the photo you posted , I see a cold solder joint. No matter what material you used to connect the two pieces, it should resemble the photo of a finished joint in Brent's post, except for maybe color, depending on material. I make this assessment by the amount of build up I see around the joint. When making a solder joint, braze joint, or brazeweld joint (yes, there is s difference) what you see is important. On a solder joint or brazed joint, any type of build up does not enhance the strength of the joint, and only wastes material and may overheat and oxidize the joint. And as Brett mentioned, did you use a torch or a soldering iron? For a small model like a Junior Nobler, Stay Brite should have given you acceptable results for material that sized. Were there any gaps in the horn to wire joint? Fit up of the parts is critical. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I have used Stay Brite with good results for a long time. I am a trained welder by trade and have spent 45 years at it, including several years teaching it. No matter how you are trying to stick two pieces of metal together, using the proper materials, tools and technique is important and takes practice to get proficient. I'm going to assume that since you asked about doing this assembly with JB Weld ( which is essentially epoxy) you don't have much metal working experience or you might not have asked that question. If you had done a correct job with even standard solder, it should have taken some effort to get the joint to fail, not just one twist. And using Stay Brite, if done correctly, I doubt that you could have broken the joint, and the wire would have failed in a destructive test. Even using the more expensive higher content silver material, if not done correctly, that is no guarantee of success and won't make up for any short comings done in the fit up of the parts. With all of that being said, would I use it on a bigger piped or .60 powered model with 1/8" wire and thicker horns? Probably not. Everything has it's limits, But I have used Stay Brite on smaller parts where it's more appropriate. There is another thread where soldering tanks is discussed and that is another area where I would NOT use StayBrite due to the nasty flux it requires. Soldering and brazing is like any other skill that takes practice to get proficient.
Addressing the heating of the brazed drill rod joints in the oven, this is an annealing process to take the hardness out of the joint and rod after the brazing process. Every metal has a point where the grain structure changes state with heat and is called the eutectic point. Air hardened tool steel comes in many different alloys and degrees of hardness. You choose how hard the part you want to make needs to be and choose the correct material. After machining the part (carefully so as to not over heat it) you simply fire the part to a specific temperature, and how long you let it soak at that heat can determine results. Lots of cutting and punching dies are made with this material, along with forming dies. If you have had a 75 through '76 (I think) full sized GM automobile that was made at the old Chevrolet plant here in St. Louis, the frames are thinner than the previous years that shared the same frame. I spent a long, hot month the summer of '74 welding up the male die sections for the forming dies that A.O Smith made frame with for GM at their plant across the river. These die sections were made from D-2 air hardened tool steel, and needed to be modified to use on thinner metal, due to government mandates for better gas mileage on cars made in the US. This was right after the Arab oil embargo of the early 70's. To meet the mandates, the first thing they did was try and make cars lighter. That means thinner metal for the frames, and with no time or budget to make new dies, it was decided to modify existing dies to accommodate metal that was .030" thinner. I know that doesn't sound like much, but the weight savings over the whole frame was substantial, I just can't remember the number. I had to heat the sections up (which were about 12" to 18" long 4" thick or so and DAMN heavy!) to about 1200 degrees and maintain that temp while I ran stringer beads over the length of the die to cover the curvature of the business end with a special welding rod. I had a BBQ like grill made from 3/4" pipe that had natural gas and air fed into it and the section sat on that, and I helped it heat up with a LPG/Oxygen rose bud torch. Weld a few inches, then pound it flat with a ball peen hammer and repeat. The peening helped relieve the stress from the weld beads cooling, even though the parent metal was 1200 degrees. When I had enough metal built up, I had to anneal the section or sometimes they call it normalize it, to relieve all hardness and stresses. This meant heating it back up to 1200 to 1400 degrees, and holding it there for a short while, then burying the section quickly in a big wash tub of lime. The lime is a good insulator, and even after 24 hours in the tub, the sections were still too hot to handle with bare hands, but could be removed and the process repeated on the next section. Then the machinists hand ground the dies to a new shape, using hand cut metal templates to guide them. When they were finished, I heated the sections up to about 900 degrees slowly and soaked it there for a while, then set it aside to cool, and the section was like glass again.I think I came very close to heat stroke several times and didn't know it. That job lasted 7 day a week for about a month during their annual change over shut down. If I tried something like that now, it would kill me! That whole story is just to explain air hardened tool steel, and describe the temps needed to make it do it's stuff. Heating a flap horn to 500 degrees might be pretty close to the annealing point, because it's such a small part, and sometimes it's not so much the temperature, but the amount of heat and how long. Where ever the rod is purchased from should be able to provide the spec, or be in an engineering metallurgy book. If not done, the wire horns could snap like a twig. My education in heat treating drill rod goes back to my sailplane days, which was at that same time period. !/4" music wire was not available then, and I wanted something that size for a wing joiner for a sailplane. I cut myself a piece of 1/4" drill rod and consulted the machinists about how to heat treat it, and made the attempt. I didn't want it too soft, nor too hard either. I put it in the wing, and on the first launch, the rod snapped like the twig I mentioned before! It's a tricky dance but in retrospect, drill rod isn't the best material for that kind of part.
Get yourself some scrap material and the proper tools and start practicing, and just watch carefully as you do it to look for and see the changes that happen.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Brett Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2020, 12:05:10 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Saydak on March 15, 2020, 04:15:30 PM

I made up two elevator horns for my Jr. Nobler. The upper horn was soldered with Staybrite silver solder (supposedly 7 times stronger than ordinary solder). In spite of a "perfect" solder joint it failed in the twist test. I thought it might have been ok for a .15 size model but clearly it would be an accident waiting to happen.

IF you absolutely have to use low-strength, low-melting-point solder, use this method (from Igor, but I learned it from Keith Trostle):

The "key" needs to be fit so it is a tight fit against the crossbar, like, you have to drive it into the hole. That, and very careful soldering with perfect technique, will make something *acceptable*, most of the time. The workmanship has to be very exacting or it will fail just like yours did.

I would never recommend this, just because the brazing is much better and much less demanding, almost unscrewupable. But I have done it and it did survive the airplane.

Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2020, 12:11:15 AM »

Quote from: Motorman on March 15, 2020, 09:50:34 PM

A-2 is air hardening steel. If you get it too a certain temp it will get hard/brittle by design as it cools so you have to temper it. You can solder it with the Alpha Fry and not get it to the critical temp but it's a narrow window on when to back off the heat. That's how I do it using a cooler propane torch so I don't need the oven treatment.

And if you go over, it gets *really hard*, like Rockwell c60+. This is tool steel, the same thing they make metal cutting tools with, hence "drill rod". It comes annealed, but go a little over to the critical temp, and it's just about as hard as steel can get. That's how they make hack saw blades and music wire cutters. It's not machinable at these hardnesses, it takes a grinder, carbine will tend to chip if you try.

Tempering it afterwards at moderate temperature (I see 300-500F as a typical range - heat treating is kind of like reading goat entrails or a horoscope, you never have two people or two references tell you the same thing) doesn't hurt anything and will save you if you have accidentally gone over during brazing.

Brett

Dennis Saydak · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2020, 10:25:04 AM »

[quote author=Dan McEntee link=topic=55982.msg576789#msg576789 date=1584409549
Hi Dennis;
Do you still have the failed horn or a better photo? I have to ask, how you considered it "perfect?" How much experience do you have at soldering and brazing?
Dan McEntee
[/quote]

Sorry Dan, but I threw it out. I consider myself pretty experienced at soldering & brazing. I even did some acetylene welding years ago.
The problem I see is Staybrite is still soft solder, which can easily be cut through with a hobby knife. Good silver solder is far harder and stronger by comparison. The horn joint flowed smoothly onto both materials and the fit was as close as I could make it with the small drills I have on hand. It looked perfect enough to me. However, when I clamped the horn in a vise and twisted the wire using vise grips it let go. I had to twist pretty hard but it did fail so I clearly wouldn't trust Staybrite for this purpose based on my one experiment.

The reason I decided to do this experiment was my jar of flux had completely dried out and there is no local supply where I live in the country. I hoped to get a useable horn so I could finish off my JR. Nobler project. Today I'm trying to reconstitute the flux rock and I'll see if it still works before brazing the new horn.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2020, 10:41:22 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Saydak on March 17, 2020, 10:25:04 AM

The reason I decided to do this experiment was my jar of flux had completely dried out and there is no local supply where I live in the country. I hoped to get a useable horn so I could finish off my JR. Nobler project. Today I'm trying to reconstitute the flux rock and I'll see if it still works before brazing the new horn.

Most of this type of flux is water-soluble. The flux in the Alpha Fry kit always dries out after it is opened. I cut it open, chip some off the block, and then mix it with some water to reform the paste.

Brett

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2020, 09:07:07 PM »

Quote from: Motorman on March 15, 2020, 09:50:34 PM

A-2 is air hardening steel. If you get it too a certain temp it will get hard/brittle by design as it cools so you have to temper it. You can solder it with the Alpha Fry and not get it to the critical temp but it's a narrow window on when to back off the heat. That's how I do it using a cooler propane torch so I don't need the oven treatment.

Motorman

The soldering material has to get to a specific temp for it to flow correctly, and the parent material has to get to a specific temp for the soldering material to flow around it and for the flux to act. You are still probably getting it to the critical temperature anyway, no matter what you use for a torch. If the solder has to get to 750 degrees to flow correctly, and the critical temp is 650, you are over the line.The best way to get around the oven treatment is to find out what that temperature is, get it there, and then super slow cool it like I mentioned in my post with burying it in lime or something similar just as you finish soldering/brazing it. Using a "cold" torch just puts you in danger of a cold solder joint.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2020, 09:12:27 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Saydak on March 17, 2020, 10:25:04 AM

[quote author=Dan McEntee link=topic=55982.msg576789#msg576789 date=1584409549
Hi Dennis;
Do you still have the failed horn or a better photo? I have to ask, how you considered it "perfect?" How much experience do you have at soldering and brazing?
Dan McEntee

Sorry Dan, but I threw it out. I consider myself pretty experienced at soldering & brazing. I even did some acetylene welding years ago.
The problem I see is Staybrite is still soft solder, which can easily be cut through with a hobby knife. Good silver solder is far harder and stronger by comparison. The horn joint flowed smoothly onto both materials and the fit was as close as I could make it with the small drills I have on hand. It looked perfect enough to me. However, when I clamped the horn in a vise and twisted the wire using vise grips it let go. I had to twist pretty hard but it did fail so I clearly wouldn't trust Staybrite for this purpose based on my one experiment.

The reason I decided to do this experiment was my jar of flux had completely dried out and there is no local supply where I live in the country. I hoped to get a useable horn so I could finish off my JR. Nobler project. Today I'm trying to reconstitute the flux rock and I'll see if it still works before brazing the new horn.

If that is the stuff you were using, that's not stay brite. The flux with Stay Brite is a clear liquid, and the wire in the picture looks like the higher silver alloy material. It's in a bigger coil like that and comes in a flat plastic "can" type package. Silver solder flux can become contaminated and I was always taught to keep it covered, and like Bret says, when it gets crusty, a few drops of water will bring it back. The stuff I'm used to is white, and in a pinch, just putting some dried flakes on a joint where it will stay put and carefully heating it, it will still melt, just make sure it flow where you need it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dennis Saydak · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2020, 10:49:27 AM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on March 17, 2020, 09:12:27 PM

If that is the stuff you were using, that's not stay brite. The flux with Stay Brite is a clear liquid, and the wire in the picture looks like the higher silver alloy material. It's in a bigger coil like that and comes in a flat plastic "can" type package. Silver solder flux can become contaminated and I was always taught to keep it covered, and like Bret says, when it gets crusty, a few drops of water will bring it back. The stuff I'm used to is white, and in a pinch, just putting some dried flakes on a joint where it will stay put and carefully heating it, it will still melt, just make sure it flow where you need it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dan, yes my failed solder experiment was done with Staybrite (small coil of soft solder with a small bottle of clear flux).

The last picture I posted shows my normal silver brazing material. The flux was not useable. So I tried the Staybrite experiment, which didn't work out as I had hoped. Currently I'm trying to dissolve my jar of black flux and I'll see if it still works for brazing.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2020, 12:32:59 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Saydak on March 18, 2020, 10:49:27 AM

Dan, yes my failed solder experiment was done with Staybrite (small coil of soft solder with a small bottle of clear flux).

The last picture I posted shows my normal silver brazing material. The flux was not useable. So I tried the Staybrite experiment, which didn't work out as I had hoped. Currently I'm trying to dissolve my jar of black flux and I'll see if it still works for brazing.

I think any solvent you can find (water/alcohol, acetone and related, or mineral spirits/turpentine) would be acceptable, as long as it gets it soft enough to apply. Once you hit it with a MAPP gas torch, it's going to evaporate, then the flux melts. If you could keep it from blowing away, just putting chunks of it on the part would work.

Brett

Bruce Guertin · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2020, 01:37:27 PM »

I've got a tig welder. Not an expert by any means but, I wonder if, for those us that own tig welders, if they could be welded?

Brett Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2020, 06:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Bruce Guertin on March 18, 2020, 01:37:27 PM

I've got a tig welder. Not an expert by any means but, I wonder if, for those us that own tig welders, if they could be welded?

Me neither, I only tried it once with acceptable but sloppy results. It would certainly work, the problem would be not being able to set the current low enough to prevent vaporizing it in the first few seconds. You would also expect to have extreme distortion of the bar from differential shrinking of the metal.

Brett

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2020, 09:06:37 PM »

Quote from: Bruce Guertin on March 18, 2020, 01:37:27 PM

I've got a tig welder. Not an expert by any means but, I wonder if, for those us that own tig welders, if they could be welded?

If you made a control horn from music wire, you might have a chance. Doing stuff that tight takes a steady hand and a good machine. Jigged up nice and steady, use some MIG wire for filler metal. You would anneal the music wire but could be re-heat treated I think, and then there is the distortion while cooling as mentioned. 1/8" music wire is tough to tweak the flaps on if you need to. That is why the use of drill rod came to be. Un-hardeded, it is pretty tough but still a bit malleable. If you welded the drill rod, you either have to let it cool super slow, or anneal it later. And you would also have some distortion to deal with also. The key with either is not undercutting the wire.
In my prime, it would be no problem. We had a TIG welder at the printing company that I worked at for 20 years and performed many 'government projects for myself and others. All we had when I hired in was an old Lincoln 225 cracker box stick welder. I finally convinced the management that there was enough stuff on a printing press and bindery equipment that I could repair to make it worth having a stick and TIG machine. I picked a Miller square wave 185 and with some rod and other goodies it was only about 1900 bucks all in. It amazed me how much smaller and less expensive equipment had got since I graduated from welding school. I installed a new 220VAC single phase primary line for it when it arrived and then set to work repairing some aluminum castings for some air powered banding tools, and fixed up enough to build up two from parts that night and put them in service, and paid for the machine the first time I used it.
I left the printing company in 2015, and my plan was to get the same type equipment for myself to use in my garage as a retirement gift to myself. I just missed welding of any kind! The technology has changed tremendously, and as good as I thought the Miller was when we got it in 1997, it's gotten better since. I just couldn't wait until I retired, so went into a bit of debt for a Lincoln 200 TIG and stick machine. With one of these, there isn't anything you can't weld. And the best thing is, it can operate off a 20 amp 110VAC outlet! I didn't have to try and figure out how to get 220VAC to my garage. It's been too cold to play with it much, but I hope to get back in decent practice. Mark Hughes crashed his Macchi tuned piped stunt model and broke the engine mounts off his PA-61 that was in it. That was the inspiration to go ahead and get the machine. I got the mounts repaired, Mark had Randy Smith locate the crank and some other parts for it, and it's been repaired, and about 6 tanks of fuel run on it on the test stand and all is well. PA-61s just don't grow on trees! When the weather gets warmer, I intend to exercise it a bit more. In my prime I could weld two soda cans end to end to satisfy people that I can weld aluminum, and lap weld to razor blades together. Gotta get my hands, eyes and brain re-calibrated to be able to do that again. The secret to welding with a TIG welder is patience and practice, and a solid, comfortable table and chair to work on . You have so much control that you can really take your time when you need to on the delicate stuff. There has been a thread about soldering tanks, and one time a local guy asked me if I could weld up a stainless tank for him, but I finally convinced him that as neat as it may have sounded, the weight and cost just wasn't worth it, but it sure would have looked neat all polished out!
I don't know how old you are Bruce, but if you are looking for a career, get good with that TIG torch and a few other skills and in this day and age the world is your oyster. None of this younger generation is interested in learning this stuff or in getting their hands dirty at all. Some good welding skills, some 3 phase electrical knowledge, and some machine shop experience and you can write your own ticket in industrial maintenance. Somebody has to be able to fix stuff! We can't all sit at a desk and pound a computer!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Brent Williams · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2020, 10:02:48 PM »

Once you have your parts jigged up, and you have the preformed "donut" of silver braze in place, and you have the flux sufficiently slathered on the mating surfaces, you are only applying heat for such a short time that it's almost shocking. You hit it with the MAPP torch and bada-bing, the flux flows and the silver braze forms a nice fillet. It's like a 10-15 second process at most.

Parts jigged in place

Silver Braze "donut" form and flux in place, ready to apply heat

Bruce Guertin · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2020, 08:32:01 PM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on March 18, 2020, 09:06:37 PM

If you made a control horn from music wire, you might have a chance. Doing stuff that tight takes a steady hand and a good machine. Jigged up nice and steady, use some MIG wire for filler metal. You would anneal the music wire but could be re-heat treated I think, and then there is the distortion while cooling as mentioned. 1/8" music wire is tough to tweak the flaps on if you need to. That is why the use of drill rod came to be. Un-hardeded, it is pretty tough but still a bit malleable. If you welded the drill rod, you either have to let it cool super slow, or anneal it later. And you would also have some distortion to deal with also. The key with either is not undercutting the wire.
In my prime, it would be no problem. We had a TIG welder at the printing company that I worked at for 20 years and performed many 'government projects for myself and others. All we had when I hired in was an old Lincoln 225 cracker box stick welder. I finally convinced the management that there was enough stuff on a printing press and bindery equipment that I could repair to make it worth having a stick and TIG machine. I picked a Miller square wave 185 and with some rod and other goodies it was only about 1900 bucks all in. It amazed me how much smaller and less expensive equipment had got since I graduated from welding school. I installed a new 220VAC single phase primary line for it when it arrived and then set to work repairing some aluminum castings for some air powered banding tools, and fixed up enough to build up two from parts that night and put them in service, and paid for the machine the first time I used it.
I left the printing company in 2015, and my plan was to get the same type equipment for myself to use in my garage as a retirement gift to myself. I just missed welding of any kind! The technology has changed tremendously, and as good as I thought the Miller was when we got it in 1997, it's gotten better since. I just couldn't wait until I retired, so went into a bit of debt for a Lincoln 200 TIG and stick machine. With one of these, there isn't anything you can't weld. And the best thing is, it can operate off a 20 amp 110VAC outlet! I didn't have to try and figure out how to get 220VAC to my garage. It's been too cold to play with it much, but I hope to get back in decent practice. Mark Hughes crashed his Macchi tuned piped stunt model and broke the engine mounts off his PA-61 that was in it. That was the inspiration to go ahead and get the machine. I got the mounts repaired, Mark had Randy Smith locate the crank and some other parts for it, and it's been repaired, and about 6 tanks of fuel run on it on the test stand and all is well. PA-61s just don't grow on trees! When the weather gets warmer, I intend to exercise it a bit more. In my prime I could weld two soda cans end to end to satisfy people that I can weld aluminum, and lap weld to razor blades together. Gotta get my hands, eyes and brain re-calibrated to be able to do that again. The secret to welding with a TIG welder is patience and practice, and a solid, comfortable table and chair to work on . You have so much control that you can really take your time when you need to on the delicate stuff. There has been a thread about soldering tanks, and one time a local guy asked me if I could weld up a stainless tank for him, but I finally convinced him that as neat as it may have sounded, the weight and cost just wasn't worth it, but it sure would have looked neat all polished out!
I don't know how old you are Bruce, but if you are looking for a career, get good with that TIG torch and a few other skills and in this day and age the world is your oyster. None of this younger generation is interested in learning this stuff or in getting their hands dirty at all. Some good welding skills, some 3 phase electrical knowledge, and some machine shop experience and you can write your own ticket in industrial maintenance. Somebody has to be able to fix stuff! We can't all sit at a desk and pound a computer!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Well, I'm old, 70. I've had my Lincoln 175 for a while and my mig longer than that. A couple years ago I built a set of headers that were 18 Gauge. I had to have some help as that .049 tube had to got to .375 flanges. A few months ago I had to build some new wheelie out of .058 moly. I did learn a few tricks last year at Sun 'N' Fun in the Lincoln booth.

Truthfully though, As cheap as it is to buy a horn there's almost no need to make ones own any more. Notice I said almost.

EddyR · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2020, 09:19:52 AM »

Another source of information on welding or connecting metal parts is the many UTube videos on bicycle building. If you go through them you will find sellers of material needed.
I was given two of the original 1987 team 7/11 bike many years ago. Both were broken or bent. These bikes are a part of history so I taught myself to take the frames apart and repair them. I spent three days at a custom bike builder to learn the methods of brazing, Control horns are easy as there is no tubing involved. Tubing is critical as to temp because it is so thin. Some Trek bikes were glued together.
Ed

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2020, 09:47:26 AM »

Quote from: EddyR on March 22, 2020, 09:19:52 AM

Another source of information on welding or connecting metal parts is the many UTube videos on bicycle building. If you go through them you will find sellers of material needed.
I was given two of the original 1987 team 7/11 bike many years ago. Both were broken or bent. These bikes are a part of history so I taught myself to take the frames apart and repair them. I spent three days at a custom bike builder to learn the methods of brazing, Control horns are easy as there is no tubing involved. Tubing is critical as to temp because it is so thin. Some Trek bikes were glued together.
Ed

Some motorcycle frames are braze welded also. Some of you may be familiar with the Rickman motorcycle brand. I think they were the first to use 4130 chrome moly tubing for their frames. They use other make engines for them, depending on the model bike and use it is for. They braze weld them to keep from over heating the assembly joints so they do not need to be normalized afterwards. Then they are nickle plated. Whenever I win the lottery, one of my first purchases will be their Steve McQueen replica Triumph powered desert racer. I plan to park it in my TV room and just look at it!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Brett Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2020, 01:52:36 PM »

While I certainly have no objection to anyone welding however they want, the brazing and other methodology (perfectly illustrated in the original SSW thread by Derek Moran) is, as far as I can tell, pretty well foolproof , created minimal distortion, and probably can be done without any subsequent tempering steps by anyone with conventional shop equipment.

BTW, I find that MAPP gas is no longer available in North America and the "MAPP gas substitute" appears to be straight propane, so no real difference from a conventional propane torch.

Brett

Howard Rush · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2020, 05:28:48 PM »

My shop came with a 240V 40A outlet for a welder. I wish the previous owner had left his welder, rather than the piano, not that I know how to operate either.

Quote from: Brett Buck on March 22, 2020, 01:52:36 PM

BTW, I find that MAPP gas is no longer available in North America and the "MAPP gas substitute" appears to be straight propane, so no real difference from a conventional propane torch.

Propylene, according to the World Wide Web. Will it work with my old propane torch?

Ken Bird · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2020, 10:35:29 AM »

Howard,

The best answer I can provide regarding Prop and Propane compatibility on your old portable torch is: "it should". The equipment will likely marry up fine with the bottle, but I am uncertain about the quality of the flame with your old torch and Prop. Some of the small torches available today are definitely cross compatible. I am not certain how different they really burn with a straight fuel gas/air setup.

For what it is worth, I have oxy acetylene at home but also rely on straight propane in a portable set-up for small low temperature brazing applications (many times mis identified as "silver solder"). I use Easy Flo 45 on control horns and it works very well.

Hope that this helps.

Ken

Howard Rush · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2020, 07:52:19 PM »

Thanks. I’ll try it (if I can get some gas).

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2020, 08:40:00 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on March 22, 2020, 05:28:48 PM

My shop came with a 240V 40A outlet for a welder. I wish the previous owner had left his welder, rather than the piano, not that I know how to operate either.

Propylene, according to the World Wide Web. Will it work with my old propane torch?

Hi Howard;
A 40 amp (probably single phase) outlet will fill the bill for a lot of welder these days. More than you might ever use. I't amazing how small, light and portable they can be also. My TIG/Stick welder is a 200 amp machine that weighs just 50 pound and can run off a 20 amp 120VAC outlet or a 220/240VAC single phase outlet. A 230 outlet is useful for other heavy duty equipment even on a temporary basis. MIG welder is nice, but has a lot of limitations. I have a small, 110VAC unit with C-25 shielding gas for when it's called for.

As for your torch, I am not familiar with the gas being referred to. Like Ken, I have a small, oxy-acetylene torch here at home, one of those sets you can carry around. A small aviator type torch is really handy for putting the heat exactly where you need it quickly. Yes, it's hotter than propane and MAPP and the gas you mentioned, but being able to apply the heat with pin point accuracy lets you get in and get out with out heating everything around it. A cooler torch may sound like a safer bet, but really it's not. To illustrate, I was installing a new A/C condensing unit on my house. The copper refrigerant lines to the inside unit are silver brazed together. I didn't have a oxy-acetylene set up at the time and took home a small "B" tank air/acetylene torch from work. It should have been big enough to do the job, but where the lines attached to the new unit at the service valves was a pretty closed in area, and right up against the service valves. I would have had to spend so much time getting the copper to temp that I would have cooked to service valves. I asked around some friends and borrowed a oxy/acetylene rig, and had the job done in minutes. It's the same with something like these flap and elevator horns. The aviator type oxy/acetylene torch tips are quite small, but can put the heat you need where you want it in a second. You could braze a flap horn joint from start to finish while holding one end of the rod in your hand, and have plenty of time to set it down before the heat creep worked it's way out to your fingers. If you could see a use on your property for having a set up like these, they are well worth the expense, and good equipment isn't very expensive these days. It is so different from when I graduated from welding school, I can't believe it. The set up I dreamed of having when I got my first house in 1979 would have cost me close to $15,000 depending on how far they would have had to run the three phase primary. Some where along the line transformer technology has made HUGE advances to allow the electric machines to be made that small and powerful. My Lincoln was about $2200 all in with everything I needed. The gas torches are pretty much like they always have been, but again, good equipment isn't outrageously priced and if you hunt around, deals can be found on real good equipment. $350 to $400 will get you something nice. It sounds like a lot of money, but like I said if you think you could make other use of it on your property it's well worth the investment. Lessons can usually be had in adult education classes at local tech schools or community colleges. I wish it were possible to demonstrate in person.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2020, 06:20:55 AM »

Way back when I tried quite a few things as I was looking for the best method and materials to make horns for the kits I produced. What worked well then and now for me was brazing with mapp gas and small diameter regular brass brazing rod which has a flux coating on it. I did it with propane for a while but it took forever and I could JUST BARELY get the wire hot enough. The mapp works much better. I heat the joint till it gets bright red then just touch the stick to it. The brass flows on nicely and I am quite sure is many times stronger than any form of solder. As long as you get the parts hot enough to melt the brass rod, you will NEVER break the joint.
I'm really admiring the tooling used above. Too much work to make a set of horns occasionally but fantastic if you were making production runs........I might try something similar but simpler- especially since I don't have machine equipment to make things like that.

Dave

Mark wood · « **Reply #29 on:** May 02, 2020, 06:32:59 AM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on March 30, 2020, 06:20:55 AM

I'm really admiring the tooling used above. Too much work to make a set of horns occasionally but fantastic if you were making production runs........I might try something similar but simpler- especially since I don't have machine equipment to make things like that.

Dave

"I'm really admiring the tooling used above." --- Yeah me too.

Precision is a mindset. If you have a drill press and a good eye, which you probably do, You too can make a pretty decent rendition of the tooling. Use reamers to fit the pins. Make pins or buy pins. The steel is relatively easy to come by. It wouldn't take but once or twice to be happy you made the tool.